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Post by swarmy on Jan 18, 2013 20:07:49 GMT
Guys.... what Westrider is saying, is that the way the FAQ is worded, it is *more restrictive* on shooting... Rule as of last week: 20 devilgaunts are shooting at 50 IG blob. All gaunts are within 18" of at least 1 guardsmen, but only 10 guardsmen are within 18". (the other 40 are between 19" and 40" away) The rules allowed for those 60 shots to kill *all 50* guardsmen. (assuming to hit, wound, saves, etc.) There was *NO* range limit as long as a single target model was in range of each firing model. The NEW FAQ rules, will only allow 10 guardsmen to die. (See, a nerf... more restrictive rules) NEW FAQ also says that if an IC joins those gaunts with a 36" gun, then all the guardsmen within 36" can be killed. (Still a nerf, still more restrictive) If you used to play that devourer shots could only ever wound/kill models that were within 18", then you were playing by your own house rules....not by the rules in the book. The rules in the BRB say as long as you can hit one model in the unit, you can kill the entire unit. (LoS notwithstanding.) The FAQ has restricted that to every model within range of your longest gun.... So the devourer worms in that hypothetical example are hitching a ride on the barbed strangler projectile to get to their far off destination? Space marine bolter bolt thingies are somehow magically being carried beyond their lethal range by missiles? GW makes some weird rulings in many cases but I don't see why they would have a gun be limited in killing potential till you purchase another entirely separate longer range gun. The nerf makes sense seeing as how many units can drown enemy units in saves, even outside their max weapon range (us included). Though, I don't know why they would deliberately allow for that nonsensical interpretation that allows guns to perform better than they would on their own
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Post by Obsidorox on Jan 18, 2013 20:38:34 GMT
Pretty much, but as Westrider and Coredump said - that was happening last week regardless. Actually you could kill a model 50" away with a bolter provided there was 1 guy within 12" of all of your guns and you had enough shots to kill everything infront of it.
I'm not sure why GW included this in the FAQ. It wasn't a question, they just added another layer to shooting.
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Post by WestRider on Jan 19, 2013 1:06:20 GMT
Remember that for all of 5th, neither Range nor LoS had any effect on Casualty Removal within a Unit. As long as at least one Model was visible and in Range, the whole Unit was fair game. The whining about that died down after a couple of months, too, as everyone found out that, as a Game, it actually worked out pretty well.
All of this is abstraction. The last time GW really tried to do "realistic" Casualty Removal Rules, it took 2 1/2 Hours to play a Game with 25 Models on a side. Some times you just have to let one slide so you can actually Play the Game.
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Post by Sensei on Jan 19, 2013 3:23:50 GMT
I'm more confused as a result of this discussion than the actual FAQ.....
All firing weapons still have to be in range of their functional ability. To me it's pretty simple. If an enemy model is within your firing model's weapon range, it can shoot. If not, it can't. Once all hits have been determined you start allocating wounds. Wounds are allocated to the closest model. However now wounds can only be allocated to a model that was within range of a firing model to start with. I don't see how this extends range.
Soooo....that means a unit of 5 marines with same range weapons (say bolters) that are only within range of say two enemy models may ONLY wound those two models regardless of the number of wounds. Say they get 3 wounds - the first two kill the models in range, now the last wound cannot be allocated to a model that was out of range. Before the FAQ, all three would be allocated.
Add in a missile launcher. IF all 5 marines are in range of a single model (excepting the missile launcher who which clearly has range) - they roll to hit/to wound. Pre FAQ, all wounds would be allocated, post FAQ all wounds may be allocated UP TO the Missile launcher range. In this case it is likely all wounds are going to be allocated due to the extended range of the missile launcher, but it's basically the same as allocation pre FAQ: If all marines are within range of a single enemy, wounds get allocated and can all cause wounds.
The missle launcher is an odd example, because it's huge range basically reverts wound allocation to Pre FAQ: a single enemy model within range, any enemy can be wounded.
I don't understand how you are determining a bolt pistol is wounding a prime 47 inches away because a missile launcher is firing as well. You still have to measure range. Just because the missile launcher is in the firing unit doesn't mean all weapons magically get a range of 48. You still measure for range and if the bolt pistol is not within 12 inches it cannot fire.
Theoretically, it's possible I suppose IF you have a line of gaunts extending that distance, IF the first gaunt is within 12 inches of the bolt pistol and IF the sgt with the bolt pistol gets a precision shot and allocates to the Prime IF the sgt has Line of Sight 47 inches away IF you fail your 2+ Look out Sir roll, AND IF you fail your 3+ armour save roll and (if you've used a tervigon to grant feel no pain) IF you fail your 5+ feel no pain roll.
IF you allow all of those conditions to be met, I'm sorry, you deserved to have that bolt pistol wound your prime.
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Post by Raven on Jan 19, 2013 3:24:52 GMT
I find it interesting that there are so many people complaining about being able to kill things outside your gun's max range as long as you have another gun with longer range. You could ALWAYS do this, regardless of having a longer ranged gun or not, why is it such an issue all of a sudden?
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Post by Jestar on Jan 19, 2013 3:34:07 GMT
Q: Blessings are manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, Outflanking rolls etc and if so which is resolved first? (p68) A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook. This is HUGE... now that outflanking Tervigon can cast Iron Arm/Endurance on himself when arriving from reserves. Of course so can you're enemy Librarian coming in from a Drop Pod cast his powers too. Not sure if someone else has already burst your bubble, but no it doesn't work like this. What happens simultaneously are the rolls. You roll for all your reserves, and Blessings and maledictions, then you move your reserve units onto the table. The only difference this makes is that you will be aware of what you have coming in from reserve before you cast your powers on the already placed models. It's nice for planning your next turn's moves, but not game changing.
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Post by Sensei on Jan 19, 2013 3:35:53 GMT
PrinceRaven has it right ^^
People just don't like change and get bent out of joint at the mention of it. Personally, I'm happy about the new restriction. It takes some of the gusto out of shooting, which has taken such a frontline role in 6th. Aside from missile launchers and other extremely long range weaponry, it makes shooting a little more survivable if part of my unit is out of range of whoever is shooting at me.
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Post by maugrim on Jan 19, 2013 4:38:47 GMT
When you disembark you are no longer deep striking either, you have deep struck. You count as having arrived by deep strike, past tense. You are there, you are no longer in the process of striking deeply and have moved on to disembarkation. I have never seen a ruling in an FAQ or rulebook that remotely supports what you are saying. me either. the pod is the unit deep striking. the pod and the contents are different units. the pod deep strikes. if no mishap contents disembark, they dont deep strike outside the pod. they count as having deep struck because they dont want us moving and assualting the turn you arrive. 5th ed BRB pg 95 - Some units' special rules allow them to enter play via... If you wish to use this 'deep strike' option, then the units in question must begin the game in reserve... And later: The models may not move any further, other than to disembark from a Deep Striking transport vehicle. So in 5th, the unit inside the Pod is still considered to be Deep Striking, even if it is arriving via a Transport. 6th ed BRB pg 36 - Virtually the same text, except clearer: "In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they are in one." The units disembarking from the Pod are considered "deep striking units". In both editions (6th is even clearer than 5th about it) it is the same, so even as you get out of the pod you suffer all the same effects as regular Deep Strikers (Terrain being Dangerous, Warp Quake, etc). Almost nobody called it that way before because Marines didn't want to be penalized when they got out of their Drop Pods into terrain.
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Post by coredump on Jan 19, 2013 5:35:58 GMT
Not sure if someone else has already burst your bubble, but no it doesn't work like this. What happens simultaneously are the rolls. You roll for all your reserves, and Blessings and maledictions, then you move your reserve units onto the table. The only difference this makes is that you will be aware of what you have coming in from reserve before you cast your powers on the already placed models. It's nice for planning your next turn's moves, but not game changing. Hold on there... you are bursting too many bubbles. The FAQ explains that some things all happen in this new,nebulous 'beginning of the movement phase". As examples, they include Blessings, Reserve rolls, and Outflanking rolls. Outflanking rolls clearly happen only when a unit is actually arriving from reserves, and thus moving onto the board. Now, you could try and claim that you are allowed to move onto the battlefield via Outflank and then cast blessings.... but can't move onto the battlefield via normal reserves... but that sure seems like creating a distinction that is not really there. (Just like you could try and claim it does not hold for maledictions, only blessings....equally spurious) What we have is a pretty clear indication that rolls and arrivals are part of this "beginning of the phase" pseudo-step that the FAQ has created. (But the psyker still can't arrive and cast....)
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Post by infornography on Jan 19, 2013 5:36:41 GMT
They are deep striking in that they have used the deep strike rule to arrive. It says right there that they can THEN disembark. Again by your logic they count as deep striking the whole turn and if they ran instead of shooting into that terrain they would still be penalized. I'm sorry but I don't see how you can read it the way you are reading it, it seems VERY clear cut to me. Yes the units inside the pod arrive by deep strike, once the pod is on the table, deep strike is done, but it still has effects on the units that did it such as being unable to move beyond disembarking or assault.
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Post by swarmy on Jan 19, 2013 8:20:50 GMT
I find it interesting that there are so many people complaining about being able to kill things outside your gun's max range as long as you have another gun with longer range. You could ALWAYS do this, regardless of having a longer ranged gun or not, why is it such an issue all of a sudden? Because it has huge implications for units with a single type of gun and an exclusion to having to deal with the change in the case of mixed weapon range units. We aren't exactly loaded with options to extend our wound-able range as easily as most armies. We have...warriors. That's why you need your pitch fork and torch to march in the streets...if that's how they meant it; It's an act of war on the hive mind! Honestly, I'm just going to play some games later today so I'll just see how my buddies took the FAQ. That's the only gamers this will affect my games with. They are going to pat me on the back and say "congrats on the spore upgrade! "...then pummel me with poison shots haha
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Post by Sensei on Jan 19, 2013 8:34:25 GMT
I guess I see your point swarmy. It adds a restriction to shooting, but is unfairly skewed to those armies that have the option of adding a longer range gun to the unit.
I still think overall it will be beneficial. I'm not familiar with points costs of long range weaponry for marines or really any other armies, but I feel like adding in a lascannon or missile launcher to every unit just to allow wounds to be applied the way they were pre FAQ would be detrimental to their army. Normal units that are only within range of a portion of my unit are still going to lose any other shots once my "in range" models are dead.
I feel like this could even be a potential strategy; with premeasuring at any time allowed, why not measure before movement and place your units so that even after your opponent moves they are only going to be in range of a couple models. You could use this to "direct" enemy fire towards a decoy unit or an MC that can take it. Most of my opponents try to bring their full firepower to bear and don't really shoot at a unit if only one or two guys are in range. If you have a unit you don't want shot up, make sure if anyone fires at it, any wounds past one or two will not be able to be allocated.
Also, I'm on Info's Maugrims's (ooops, mis typed there. I agree diembarking is still counted as the actual deepstrike move) side here. Yes, the spore is deepstriking, but the units in it count as having arrived from deepstrike for all intents and purposes until your next turn.
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Post by maugrim on Jan 19, 2013 14:08:29 GMT
And for discussion's sake, from the GK codex pg 28: "If the Psychic test is successful, all enemy teleport homers and other iems of wargear that preent Deep Strike scatter cease to function whilst within 12" of the squad while this power is in effect. Furthermore, any enemy unit deploying by Deep Strike within 12" of the squad (after scattering) will automatically suffer a Deep Strike mishap."
Even if you are disembarking - that unit is "deploying by Deep Strike" to within 12", and therefore will suffer from the mishap.
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Post by infornography on Jan 19, 2013 14:44:26 GMT
Again, if you have gotten to the disembarking step, you have finished deploying by deep strike. The deployment step is done.
I am done arguing this until new evidence is brought to light, we are just going round and around and apparently do not have sufficient evidence to convince the other. I don't see how or why you interpret it this way but no amount of me explaining it from this point will change your mind.
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Post by Davor on Jan 19, 2013 20:45:23 GMT
So lets say, we have two Space Marines agaisnt each other. SM A has 5 bolters, and SM B has 4 bolters and a Missle Launcher. They are both 23" apart and only one marine each can hit each other lets say.
So SM A has 5 hits and 5 wounds. SM B have 5 hits and 5 wounds. So SM B only one SM dies because he is the only one in range, while SM A, they all can die.
How can they all can die because the Missle Launcher some hows carries the bolter shots to kill the other SM?
Time to see if the Tyranid Prime can have a weapon that is longer than 18", and then join him with Devilgaunts so that can increase the 18" range then.
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