Monstrous Creatures and Cover Saves

[pseudonymion]

Does a Monstrous Creature's base need to be completely within area terrain to allow for a 5+ cover save, or does being partially within area terrain allow for this? Thus far, all I've found within the rulebook is "models in area terrain" (page 91) allowing for the 5+. My local gaming group is arguing that this means the entire base, not just straddling the edge of the area terrain. I've tried to use the description provided on page 4 of "within" and "wholly within" but unfortunately, they continue to resist.

Besides finding a new gaming group (I kind of live in the "sticks" and this would be difficult), how can I convince them that just touching is enough? Or does the forum feel that this interpretation is incorrect and that it should be completely within?

Any input for or against is appreciated.

And based on how this thread goes, I'll be prepared to discuss flying Monstrous Creatures and how they get cover saves if they land within area terrain.

[Nightmare20]

I was under the impression it was 25% coverage but don't quote me on that. Might be different for area terrain.

[WestRider]

There are a couple of places in the Rules where it specifies that a Model's entire Base must be within a given area. Disembarking is one, and claiming Linebreaker was clarified as another in the FAQ. In both of those cases, they say that a Model's Base must be "wholly within" the given area.

GW does actually care about this distinction, and has gone far enough to FAQ it in a place where they wrote it wrong. Therefore, they actually meant it to work the way it's written in the Area Terrain section, where it just says "within" instead of "wholly within".

[fleetofclaw]

It's no different whether it's a standard infantry model or a Monstrous Creature. So if they're saying that it applies differently for your MC vs any other non-vehicle model then they're idiots. At the end of the day the answer is no, no they don't have to be "wholly within."

Also FMC's get area terrain cover. To rule otherwise is to make a massive assumption on intent as there are zero rules that deny them cover. Regardless of how ridiculous that may seem to someone, in my eyes it's one slight advantage for having to deal with the awfully designed, horribly tacked on grounding rules. Flyers are better than FMC's in almost every other respect, so my 260 point flyrant can get area terrain cover from someone's 130 point Vendetta thank you very much.

[coredump]

While I could see someone saying that a model has to be completely within area terrain to get a cover save**, there is *no* basis for treating a MC any differently than any other model.
**That said, they would still be in error. 40K is pretty consistent in ruling that only part of the model/base needs to be in terrain/range/etc.

[roxor08]

I also am curious about the Hive's consensus on this one.

In my experience, and as far as our gaming group considers, an infantry model only needs to be partially in cover to get the save...However, I am slightly confused on the MC ruling due to the 25% rule.

Here's my understanding, MC's can be granted a cover save under the following categories:
IF your MC is in area terrain you are granted a cover save....
IF your MC is blocked by an intervening unit and 25% covered, you are granted a cover save***********
IF your MC is has been granted shrouded/steath, you are granted a cover save

As far as I know these are the only ways a MC can gain cover (barring a Venomthrope)

My biggest confusion is the objectivity of the 25% rule. Do you guys play it 25% of the surface area of the MC? As in a Trygon has the majority of its "body mass" well above the base and a gargoyle screen probably does not fulfill the 25% rule IF going by **surface area**

However, the other way that is less subjective is based on height of models. If the gargoyles that are intervening LOS, they easily fulfill the 25% of height context.

Please advise as I am joining a tournament and would like to know the consensus . I hope not to hijack the thread, as this is rather pertinent to the topic. Thanks!

[fleetofclaw]

Yeah the trickiest one is the Trygon. I tend run him in less competitive games, and when I do I don't try screening him with gargoyles and try to stick to area terrain or obscuring terrain (not often you can fully block LOS on that big boy) . Your best bet is to contact the TO and get a ruling on that and any other rules questions not covered in their info pack.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards

[retnab]

The way I play it is, looking at ruins, Gargoyles/other MC's, and such, 25% of body hidden as per rules. But in area terrain, if 25% (give or take) or more of the base is in the area they get it, so no "My fex has a toe is in that forest, 25% cover!" shenanigans.

[bigpig]

@roxor: Unless I misesed an FAQ someplace, the question of whether intervening unit requires 25% coverage to provide cover has never been officially answered. GW uses the words, "partially obscured", not 25%, when talking about drawing LoS through (not over) an intervening unit. I've played in several tournaments across CA since 6th and have seen it ruled both ways. Regarding gargoyles, I've never had an issue with anyone saying that gargoyles don't give cover to Trygons.

One key to remember is that the rules for MCs and regular small base models are exactly the same when it comes to cover. There is no distinction like their used to be in 5th edition. Another point is that the model a wound is being applied to only need to be in/behind cover from the LoS of one model in the firing unit to claim the cover save.

[coredump]

Jan 14, 2013 16:20:04 GMT roxor08 said:

In my experience, and as far as our gaming group considers, an infantry model only needs to be partially in cover to get the save...

An infantry model gets a cover save if any part of their base is in area terrain, *or* if 25% of the 'body'** of the model is obscured from at least 1 firing model.

**By 'body' I mean the head, torso, legs, or arms.

However, I am slightly confused on the MC ruling due to the 25% rule.

Should not be any confusion, the MC rules are the *same* as the basic infantry rules. If the base is in area terrain, you get a cover save, if the model is 25% obscured from at least 1 firing model, you get a cover save.

Here's my understanding, MC's can be granted a cover save under the following categories:
IF your MC is in area terrain you are granted a cover save....

Correct

IF your MC is blocked by an intervening unit and 25% covered, you are granted a cover save***********

The 25% requirement is for intervening units *and* non-area terrain.
Note, the 'space' between the intervening models also counts as 'obscurement' for this purpose.
Also note, this has nothing to do with area terrain.

My biggest confusion is the objectivity of the 25% rule. Do you guys play it 25% of the surface area of the MC? As in a Trygon has the majority of its "body mass" well above the base

This is not spelled out in the rules, it just says 'the model'. I believe most play it by surface area,not mass; though I can see an argument either way. Going just by 'height' does not seem to make sense with the rules.

and a gargoyle screen probably does not fulfill the 25% rule IF going by **surface area**

Heh... remember, the space *between* the gargs provides obscurement,but not the space *beneath* the gargs. If thefiring model can see under them.....(Granted, will almost never come into play...)

However, the other way that is less subjective is based on height of models. If the gargoyles that are intervening LOS, they easily fulfill the 25% of height context.

I really don't see this as being applicable, the model is what the model is; not some abstraction based only on its height.

[roxor08]

Great clarification Coredump. I appreciate it!

[pseudonymion]

In regards to 25% of surface area or mass of Monstrous Creatures, we have always played "surface area." As noted from previous comments, this is from the shooting unit's model with the least visibility.

I've magnetized the flying bases for my Gargoyles (following the suggestion of Ron from the great blog "From the Warp"), and when doing so, varied the heights of the Gargoyles. I was attempting to make it easier to get more of them in base-to-base contact when charging (the wings all at the same height made this problematic). By varying the height (slightly!), it inadvertently made it easier to provide cover for Monstrous Creatures behind them.

For references within the rulebook that require a model be "wholly within" (proving that if they meant wholly within, they would have said that):
- Pg. 79; Disembarking
- Pg. 80; Wrecked vehicles
- Pg. 95; Leaping down from battlements
- Pg. 120; Fortification set-up
- Pg. 121; Deploy forces
- Pg. 7; Linebreaker question from 40K rulebook FAQ

[revx]

Jan 14, 2013 20:04:48 GMT bigpig said:

@roxor: Unless I misesed an FAQ someplace, the question of whether intervening unit requires 25% coverage to provide cover has never been officially answered. GW uses the words, "partially obscured", not 25%, when talking about drawing LoS through (not over) an intervening unit. I've played in several tournaments across CA since 6th and have seen it ruled both ways. Regarding gargoyles, I've never had an issue with anyone saying that gargoyles don't give cover to Trygons.

One key to remember is that the rules for MCs and regular small base models are exactly the same when it comes to cover. There is no distinction like their used to be in 5th edition. Another point is that the model a wound is being applied to only need to be in/behind cover from the LoS of one model in the firing unit to claim the cover save.

i agree, the rule for intervening models doesnt state they need to cover 25%

[coredump]

Jan 15, 2013 14:34:43 GMT revx said:

i agree, the rule for intervening models doesnt state they need to cover 25%

but the rule *does* say it gets a cover save "in the same way as if it was behind terrain."

So intervening models provide a save in the "same way" as terrain does.
Terrain provides a save if the model is 25% obscured.... so intervening models would do it the "same way".

[voncrown]

Jan 15, 2013 18:22:58 GMT coredump said:

Jan 15, 2013 14:34:43 GMT revx said:

i agree, the rule for intervening models doesnt state they need to cover 25%

but the rule *does* say it gets a cover save "in the same way as if it was behind terrain."

So intervening models provide a save in the "same way" as terrain does.
Terrain provides a save if the model is 25% obscured.... so intervening models would do it the "same way".

Interesting, I think I just read that bit as meaning "It's a normal cover save, follows all the rules of not stacking saves, etc." Didn't occur to me it might inherit the 25% clause through that.

Is there anywhere that clarifies whether the clear plastic stalk on flyer stands counts as part of the model?