So, about Instant Death...

[zephoid]

The PL are the only eldar who have it. Farseers get Id'd all the time. Even Eldrad, who is T4, has no EW and dies more to ID than anything else. DE have no EW across the board with quite a few 3W models. Orks have nobs, on or off bikes along with their HQs, none of which have EW. Nids arent alone in being a xeno army that has little or no EW.

[nurglitch]

It's lack of Eternal Warrior that makes Mephiston balanced. Ditto for the lack of invulnerable save. Those weaknesses balance out being a Greater Daemon of Slaanesh.

[chuckles]

I think the Fantasy approach is far superior, the idea of "Instant Death" inflicting multiple wounds instead of just killing the thing outright means that the attacking player is happy because he's got a chance to kill it in one, and if he doesn't he's still most likely closer to killing it than he would have been using a lower-powered weapon, and the defending player is happier because there's still a chance he'll survive. Plus if you do get popped in one hit it's thanks to the caprice of Gamblor the Dice God. I also like the idea introduced in 8th ed of "ranks" of instagibs. There could be a standard level of Instant Death and Eternal Warrior and then ultra versions of each.

I do agree with somebody in this thread (can't remember who) who said that the problem with ID is that it's too all or nothing. Either you get popped in one or it has no additional effect. If it were graduated more it would go a long way to making ID a better rule

[gumby]

Jan 11, 2013 1:02:23 GMT Psychichobo said:

rpricew: That's true, challenges do swing the game a little in that respect. I probably do still think with a pre-6th mentality at times, as most of these complaints were in 5th where you were at serious risk rather often.

@dnalloht: Nids don't have Eternal Warrior and I believe Tau don't have it either. Everyone else does however (though I need to double check the Sisters and Necrons since their last change), for at least one character.

Though I don't know about Black Templars actually.... they may not have it.

Necrons have something better: Resurrection Protocol or Ever living on just about every none vehicle in the codex.

[wisdomseyes1]

Jan 22, 2013 20:44:43 GMT gumby said:

Jan 11, 2013 1:02:23 GMT Psychichobo said:

rpricew: That's true, challenges do swing the game a little in that respect. I probably do still think with a pre-6th mentality at times, as most of these complaints were in 5th where you were at serious risk rather often.

@dnalloht: Nids don't have Eternal Warrior and I believe Tau don't have it either. Everyone else does however (though I need to double check the Sisters and Necrons since their last change), for at least one character.

Though I don't know about Black Templars actually.... they may not have it.

Necrons have something better: Resurrection Protocol or Ever living on just about every none vehicle in the codex.

that would be feel no pain +++

[Uhtin]

I want to have insta death removed, think about ther Tyranid Warriors. Now they can be insta killed but if that rule didnt exist, I would have Warriors in all games i ever played

[nurglitch]

Tyranid Warriors are fine with Instant Death. You just need to make sure that your opponent has something nastier, and more likely to be killed by her S8+ weapons, than the Warriors. Alternately, you can give them cover, Endurance or Catalyst, and a Tyranid Prime to lead from the front.

[infornography]

So Warriors are fine with instant death on S8 as long as you buy something even more cripplingly overpriced and fragile? What?

I am fine with warriors not having eternal warrior if they were T5. Instant death from force weapons and S10 is entirely fair, but at their points, they are just too tempting a target for missiles and power fists. I don't think there is a unit in our dex that would lose more points value from a single krak other than shrikes.

[GuardDog78]

Feb 18, 2013 18:48:58 GMT nurglitch said:

Alternately, you can give them cover, Endurance or Catalyst, and a Tyranid Prime to lead from the front.

Well...all our forces generally need cover...so that's a moot point. As for endurance and catalyst...S8+ negates the FNP saves anyway...and the Prime doesn't help against krak missles and lascannons either because of majority toughnes and AP3 or better...

And about putting something meaner/tougher on the board...as much as the players in my area hate tervigons, trygons and such...they know they can obliterate warriors with S8 and prioritize them as targets because they're troops, synapse and they annihilate marines and terminates in hand combat...

If they made them T5 W2...i'd cut back on tervigons/termagant and be fielding 2 or 3 mid-sized broods every game...

[nurglitch]

The Tyranid Prime doesn't suffer Instant Death upon suffer a Krak Missile or Lascannon wound, which means it can soak two Warriors worth of wounds from such sources. Endurance is handy because it confers It Will Not Die as well as Feel No Pain, which means that Warriors will be even better at soaking up wounds from non-Instant Death sources.

My experience is similar to yours, guarddog878, with the apparent difference being that when my opponents annihilate my relative innocuous Deathspitter armed Warriors, they neglect the Carnifex broods, Trygons, Hive Tyrants, and so on. Particularly the Carnifex broods, which don't exactly get worse when they fail their Instinctive Behaviour. The issue is a strategic and tactical one with than some inadequacy with the Warrior profile. You need to field them as part of an army that over-saturates the number of anti-vehicle units opponents can engage.

Which is the point, from a game design standpoint: As you say, if they were T5 W2, then they would be a no-brainer Troop option, and the rest of the Troops selection wouldn't be live options. They work the way they are, and part of how they work is losing a 30-45 point Warrior for every wound. A Carnifex, by comparison, loses something like 40-50 points per unsaved wound. Trygons lose ~30 points per wound.

[Psychichobo]

The problem comes though when large blasts are involved. It only takes one or two shots on average to render a large warrior brood ineffective, and those weapons will have at least a few other game turns to fire at other large groups too. Swarms are another problem - they would be reasonable without instant death (though that's largely a ripper thing, as scarabs and nurglings have ways around it.)

[zephoid]

Warriors need to be T5 2W and gaunts need to have a role besides being fodder. I see gaunts as skirmishers, flankers, and bubble wrap. They should not be assault troops like we have now with tervigon gaunts. I gave them the option to outflank for cheap in the codex i wrote.

Warriors SHOULD be a auto-take. They are a core of a tyranid army from the fluff. They are the main synapse web and should be almost everywhere. They are the ones who should spearhead charges through the middle with rippers with gaunts taking the sidies and tying shooty units up. Gaunts may also back up Warriors but would probably die pretty easily. 2W T5 is the same durability as 3W T4 vs bolter fire, but S6-7 is more effective vs T5 where S3 is much less.

ID is fine as is. Our codex SHOULD be able to be ID'd as we are the main reason to want a force weapon in the game. However, too much is T4 multi-wound in our codex which means that krak/las cannon is more effective than it should be. -thropes, fine. Raveners, Ok. Even -Vores are fine as T4. Warriors are much more armored however significantly tougher than say a biovore.

Rippers are fine, but need stealth. Stealth, no save at all, fearless, and no mindless and you have a wonderful tarpit that does exactly what it does in fluff. Really, rippers should not have the save of gaunts. There isnt any armor on there that would deflect even a lasgun. I made them S2 also, as guardsmen should definitely be stronger than a ripper. TS should be the only way they are effectively doing damage.

[Nightmare20]

Feb 19, 2013 23:43:12 GMT zephoid said:

Rippers are fine, but need stealth. Stealth, no save at all, fearless, and no mindless and you have a wonderful tarpit that does exactly what it does in fluff. Really, rippers should not have the save of gaunts. There isnt any armor on there that would deflect even a lasgun. I made them S2 also, as guardsmen should definitely be stronger than a ripper. TS should be the only way they are effectively doing damage.

No, they aren't "fine". There is a reason no one takes them. Flavorwise a home run, they are mindless and cant take objectives, mindless so outside of synapse they disperse, and they die to flamers. But the thing is like everything in our codex they cost too much. I would like to see a point reduction in rippers and maybe even some special rule on an HQ or unit where we can take them without taking a force org spot like the parasite.

[blindmage]

Bring in the Malanthrtope as an HQ and have him make Rippers Scoring and Sky Slashers Denial units, both may be a bit much....or not, I tend to look at the lower end of the power scale.

[0800hell]

I like rippers personally i normally have aat LEAST one decent unit