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Post by N.I.B. on Oct 4, 2012 22:18:55 GMT
Ok I made it halfway through page 2 and I couldn't stop myself from posting. First of all.... deathstar killer? The only deathstars I see left anymore is the harliestar, 10 man pallystar, and... well maybe nob bikers (easily the weakest for Swarmy to stomp, if the ork player is dumb enough to let you get to them). Infornogrphay, why aren't your GK opponents rocking bro banners on a proper 10 man paladin deathstar? Measly 25 pts to give everyone an extra attack and auto-activate force weapon? Sorry but that unit will eat the swarmlord alive I don't care how many tyrant guards you give him. Also he's absurdly slow. Someone early on mentioned this (even though they were a vote for swarmy). Honestly he's easy to ignore. He becomes a 280 + whatever other stuff you add to his unit so you can cast 2 powers and provide a big synapse bubble. Smart players don't waste tons of shooting at him/her/whatever. Gloomfang, TK is nice but you have 3 nigh useless powers in there (vortex of doom, crush, and the other (please do not swear) nova), of the remaining OM is nominal (1 haywire hit? Meh, the anti-vehicle/flyer ability of OM is vastly overstated), then gate and dome. When I was running Swarmlord I simply relied on a Tervigon or Zthrope to throw dome on him. I did run a few times trying to get Gate but I realized I simply couldn't gameplan on getting that any more than anyone should game plan on Iron Arm; and seriously, how many times did you cast Crush, VoD (12" large blast on BS3... ROFL hello S10 in my own face!!!)... most likely when you had nothing better to do. Ultimately a 1 tguard, prime, Swarm brood rolling on biomancy is the toughest way to roll. If you do happen to get IA you go off of Swarmy's toughness, you rock dome from some other source, and endurance (you have very high chances that swarmy himself will get endurance OR iron arm). Even then he's just a Noobhammer. Smart players are not going to allow you to soak their entire army's firepower on your 400+pt ball of slowness. They will melt the other 3/4 of your army, then deal with Swarmy through maneuver or firepower. Ever run in to Eldrad? Crimeny, he's showing up with EVERYBODY now (gee thank you for allies oh infinitely wise GW), even if you are rocking gate to speed him up you're almost as likely for it to fizzle and throw a Perils wound on you. I sound pretty down on him? Truth be told every game I've played him in I've won. But that was against less experienced foe (against swarmlord) and I won despite him being a 345-455 pt lumbering point sink. They all vowed to not make that mistake again, and many other players in our group said they were dumb for it. Did everyone forget that one of the big reasons we're so down on CC Carnifex is because of how slow he is? Someone mentioned using him in conjunction with YStealers; honestly I might give that a go because that's the last shred of force multiplication I can squeeze out of him besides being a) super hard to kill b) mastery 2 and c) a big synapse bubble. But every time I played him I thought, "(please do not swear), all the other stuff I could have had in his place," or "what I would give just to have another flyrant harassing the enemy on turn 1 and scoring me 1st blood." TLDR: Wisdomeyes said it best, he's not awful, he's not great. Too slow, smart players will not waste early game shooting on him, too expensive, not the baddest deathstar on the block. A voice of reason, appreciated. |
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Post by rpricew on Oct 4, 2012 22:37:56 GMT
Measly 25 pts to give everyone an extra attack and auto-activate force weapon? Sorry but that unit will eat the swarmlord alive I don't care how many tyrant guards you give him. This statement I found to be pretty funny. A proper SL deathstar is nothing a GK would want to tangle with, especially paladins without some IC hidden in there. They would need 5+ to hit and 6+ to wound on the basic level. Now you add in things like Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Endurance, Objuration Mechanicum, Enfeeble, etc... and that GK deathstar is looking for something else to fight. Iron Arm alone kills most GK power simply by granting EW. Add in the fact that the SL can precision key members of the squad and actually kill them its really difficult. Add in the fact the SL will strike first, as well as the Prime and a guard with a lashwhip, you wont have many GK's left to swing back. One small correction Fragile, GK Paladins, Terminators & Librarians are WS5 so they are hitting on 4s and wounding on 6s before any Psychic Powers. Draigo hits on 4s and wounds on 2s. |
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Post by gloomfang on Oct 4, 2012 23:49:28 GMT
And don't forget SitW and the fact that SL is a lvl 2 psyker for DtW. Real hard to get powers of in combat.
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Post by Raven on Oct 5, 2012 4:13:56 GMT
Just keep in mind Warp Speed only gives the psyker fleet, not his unit. Great for Tervigons, not so great for walking tyrants. Don't have the rulebook currently on me, but isn't there something about independent characters granting special rules to the units they join, or is that the other way around? |
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Post by fragile on Oct 5, 2012 5:08:36 GMT
Some USRs only require 1 model to have it, some allow the IC to grant it to the unit. Fleet is not one of them. All models have to have Fleet in the unit to use it.
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Post by fleetofclaw on Oct 5, 2012 6:01:07 GMT
Measly 25 pts to give everyone an extra attack and auto-activate force weapon? Sorry but that unit will eat the swarmlord alive I don't care how many tyrant guards you give him. This statement I found to be pretty funny. A proper SL deathstar is nothing a GK would want to tangle with, especially paladins without some IC hidden in there. They would need 5+ to hit and 6+ to wound on the basic level. Now you add in things like Iron Arm, Warp Speed, Endurance, Objuration Mechanicum, Enfeeble, etc... and that GK deathstar is looking for something else to fight. Iron Arm alone kills most GK power simply by granting EW. Add in the fact that the SL can precision key members of the squad and actually kill them its really difficult. Add in the fact the SL will strike first, as well as the Prime and a guard with a lashwhip, you wont have many GK's left to swing back. Paladins are ws5, so hitting on 4s and the GK players you play must be fools if they're not taking a handful of demon hammers with them. Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards |
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Post by Raven on Oct 5, 2012 6:09:19 GMT
Some USRs only require 1 model to have it, some allow the IC to grant it to the unit. Fleet is not one of them. All models have to have Fleet in the unit to use it. Ah, ok. Thanks for clearing that up. |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Oct 5, 2012 6:10:35 GMT
Gloomfang, TK is nice but you have 3 nigh useless powers in there (vortex of doom, crush, and the other (please do not swear) nova), of the remaining OM is nominal (1 haywire hit? Meh, the anti-vehicle/flyer ability of OM is vastly overstated), then gate and dome. When I was running Swarmlord I simply relied on a Tervigon or Zthrope to throw dome on him. I did run a few times trying to get Gate but I realized I simply couldn't gameplan on getting that any more than anyone should game plan on Iron Arm; and seriously, how many times did you cast Crush, VoD (12" large blast on BS3... ROFL hello S10 in my own face!!!)... most likely when you had nothing better to do. I'll have to write a Swarmlord TK tactica sometime. I will point out a few things you are missing about OM as it is almost a broken power with Swarmlord. 1) It changes the chances of getting hit with overwatch/snapfire from 1/6 to 1/36. (Think FMCs) 2) It makes it so that S4 weapons (like bolters) have a 1/36 chance of hurting the unit at T6. 3) It keeps greatly reduces the chances of the targetted unit from rending or getting ID from a wraithcannon. 4) It makes it so that Characters get a 1/36 chance of directing a shot. 5) It makes BS2 hit on 1/36 chance (Orks and such.) Most people think of OM as just a flyer killer, it is much more versitile. With the exception of wraith cannons (man those are rare!) and protecting flyers most of that is pretty nominal. Also your math is off on bs2 but it is helpful, mostly on lootas. I'd take enfeeble over it any day however. On t3 our s4 weapons are ID-ing and denying FNP, and the same goes on our s6 weapons vs t4. Paladins vaporize with enfeeble. I'm not concerned with overwatch from bolters especially on the swarmlord, I'd way rather be 1 punching paladins/Nobs and laughing at apothecaries, pain boys, sanguinary priests, pain tokens, etc etc and so on and so forth. With iron arm lots of enfeebled stuff also has a chance of not even scratching the paint on our MCs in close combat. Even if you can make an argument for OM, I still count 2.5 decent powers in TK, where as Biomancy only has 1 stinker. It actually bums me out that Swarmlord can even cast Vortex of Doom, at least on our other psykers are protected from landing the Vortex of Blowmyownarmy up and increase their chance of getting gate or dome. Not to mention that endurance is more often than not better than TDome (and *always* better on our t6 stuff). EDIT: by the way we have a local player that took 3rd in the Nova Open, he welcomes with open arms any Nid player to Gate a swarmstar towards his lines. And I want to reiterate and echo what Wisdomeyes said on like page 2, is Swarmlord bad? Definintely not. Is he optimal? Nope. He's a very effective noobhammer, in fact they'll probably walk away thinking he's broken. Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards |
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Post by infornography on Oct 5, 2012 11:14:11 GMT
My usual opponents are far from noobs but they have seen his potential enough times that they got scared of him. If they wise up, I'll probably quit taking him but for now, totally worth the distraction and the psyker abilities he throws out are awesome.
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Post by biorivera on Oct 5, 2012 12:33:50 GMT
I remember when I used to play in 4th(before my GW closed), Casey a nid player from my store would literally have one CC fex, inch it up the board and literally make growling sounds as he moved it. You have no idea how that makes people lose their senses and target a slow priority unit(I bring this up because the swarmlord is in this boat, granted he's much faster than a 4th ed carnifex).
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Post by gloomfang on Oct 5, 2012 15:01:43 GMT
Even if you can make an argument for OM, I still count 2.5 decent powers in TK, where as Biomancy only has 1 stinker. It actually bums me out that Swarmlord can even cast Vortex of Doom, at least on our other psykers are protected from landing the Vortex of Blowmyownarmy up and increase their chance of getting gate or dome. Not to mention that endurance is more often than not better than TDome (and *always* better on our t6 stuff). Eldrad/Wraithstar is not uncommon here. The main diffrence between TK and Bio is how they function within an army. TK is much more of a tactical/synergy option then Bio's "kill things" powers. I would say TK has 1 bad power (Void). I tend to swap that out for Assail. There is only 1 "Meh" power, Crush. I was not a fan of Shockwave until I started using it (primaraly with a Gating SL). It really shines against units in cover as if they fail thier Pinning check they do not force units harging them to attack at I1. (Once I figured that out was when I started taking biovores again). The fact that it hits multipule units is nice too with horde armies as they tend to have low leadership. TK dome is better than Endurance on anything T5 or below. I tend to use it on my stealers. Or I layer it with Catalyst/Endurance on my Deathstar. Crush tends to be very hit or miss. The average strength is 6, so it can do some damage against vehicles. I almost never try to snipe out a model. But back on topic. I find Bio to be very "meh" with the swarmlord. Iron Arm: Best power in the set. I agree that is helps make him so much more durable. Endurance: Catalyst with a little boost from IWND. I can have my other units cast this on him or just keep Catalyst on my Tervigons. Nice to have, but doesn't add any options to the list. Warp Speed: Basically an extra D3 attacks. Nothing that great. No point on Smashing with SL against anything becasue he already IDs unless it is a vehicle and then he will probably wreck it anyway. Hemorrhage: Might be good against hordes of T3 or T2, but other than that not really useful. Makes it so you can't run. Leech Essence: Life Leech with better Strength. D3 vs 2 attacks is the other big diffrence. Makes it so you can't run. Enfeeble: Ok so it lets you ID T4 with S6 weapons. I don't know about most people but I don't have many S6 weapons in my list with SL. This is great on a Flyrant with lots of Dakka and if you have Dakkafexes. Not a bad power, but it is very list dependant. |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Oct 5, 2012 15:08:14 GMT
I remember when I used to play in 4th(before my GW closed), Casey a nid player from my store would literally have one CC fex, inch it up the board and literally make growling sounds as he moved it. You have no idea how that makes people lose their senses and target a slow priority unit(I bring this up because the swarmlord is in this boat, granted he's much faster than a 4th ed carnifex). Yeah but people had *real* target priority problems against us in 4th edition when we had EW, our warriors were nasty, our big boy shooting was nasty, genestealers were horrifying, not to mention, our MCs were way cheaper! etc etc. An anecdotal story from 4e isn't exactly evidence for swarmlords effectiveness. Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards |
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Post by biorivera on Oct 5, 2012 20:37:49 GMT
Oh yeah fleet, for sure. I mean the guns on the table now almost make it seem like a different game.
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Post by fragile on Oct 6, 2012 4:18:29 GMT
Enfeeble: Ok so it lets you ID T4 with S6 weapons. I don't know about most people but I don't have many S6 weapons in my list with SL. This is great on a Flyrant with lots of Dakka and if you have Dakkafexes. Not a bad power, but it is very list dependant. You miss a big point with this power. ID stuff is nice, but really, its the DPS boost that it provides that is the key. 8 gaunts with Devourers = 24 shots.. 12 hit, assuming T4, 6 wound. Now with Enfeeble those 12 that hit, 8 will wound. So from the original shooting you can expect to get 25% wounds from your shooting. With Enfeeble your looking at 33% wounds. You modifying your DPS by about 8% using Enfeeble. Now in one shooting, that isnt much, but over the course of the match with focused fire, your looking at a good increase in wounds. |
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Post by gloomfang on Oct 6, 2012 6:07:20 GMT
You miss a big point with this power. ID stuff is nice, but really, its the DPS boost that it provides that is the key. 8 gaunts with Devourers = 24 shots.. 12 hit, assuming T4, 6 wound. Now with Enfeeble those 12 that hit, 8 will wound. So from the original shooting you can expect to get 25% wounds from your shooting. With Enfeeble your looking at 33% wounds. You modifying your DPS by about 8% using Enfeeble. Now in one shooting, that isnt much, but over the course of the match with focused fire, your looking at a good increase in wounds. You said the magic word... Shooting. I have 2 units of gaunts that can shoot, Stinger Salvo on my Tervigon and DL's flesh hooks. Thats it. Now the real question is what does that 8% translate into? If it allows your unit to wipe out a unit in one round of shooting that it could not without Enfeeble, that is great. If you have to shoot it again with a second unit even with Enfeeble, but that unit would have wiped out that unit anyway, its a waste. (I'll take you 8% number. I would think that it is actually 16.66% better. Don't have the time to mathhammer so I'll use you numbers.) So your example. 8 devguants into ,lets say 5 marines. Without Enfeeble: 24 shots 12 hits 6 wounds 2 dead. 3 men left. With Enfeeble: 24 shots 12 Hits 8 wounds 2.66 Dead. So 2 or 3 left. The problem is that any increase in wounds does not translate into more dead models directly. It increases the chance of possibly killing a model. Cover saves, armor saves, FNP, Invulns and re-rolls all play a much bigger part and those are the numbers that need to be paid attention too. Now Enfeebling a unit of marines before hitting them with a unit with BS or an MC is big, as each wound is a dead model. Enfeebling a unit of TH/SS termis might make a difference if you are planning on shooting a ton of shots into them. Personally I don't think that a power that is that situational is all that reliable. I know I can count on a Buff (except playing SW and Eldar) and what benefit I will get from it. But again that might come down to playstyle... And isn't DPS Damage per Second? As in DoT spells? |
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