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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 11, 2012 23:27:14 GMT
Well, duh. There is only one set in the block at the moment so of course block isnt going to be popular and its going to be hard to make a deck that isnt rock paper scissors.
I am supprised Raka control isn't on your list, since that seems to be very popular at the moment (Raka, for those who don't know, is Red, White, and Blue)
on the note of the deckbuilder, yea you can't search for cards on it. I never took very much mind to that though, as the gatherer is my number one card search angine anyway. But that, really, is the only issue with it I think.
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Post by Geneva on Oct 16, 2012 18:09:08 GMT
Quick question. I pulled Angel of Serenity today from a random booster pack. I was pretty hyped about getting a Mythic Rare in my first RtR pack so I immediately tried it out in a game with another guy at the store. Seven mana or no, that's a pretty lucky draw. She showed up in the second round and I used her to exile my Thragtusk, Geist-Honoured Monk and Blade Splicer from my graveyard in order to have back up should she die. (My opponent's field was pretty empty anyway.) My opponent used Oblivion Ring on her and exiled her from the game. I made to return my three cards to my hand when my opponent interjected saying that because she had been exiled her ability for leaving the battlefield hadn't been activated. We debated this a short bit but I gave him the benefit of the doubt. I haven't played in a while so I assumed he was more familiar with the terminology than I was. I still find it kind of fishy though. "Leaving the battlefield" seems like a pretty clear activation mechanic to me. When the card leaves, regardless of the reason, the effect activates. Am I wrong in this? If so could someone specify what is exactly meant by "leaving the battlefield". Does it count for dying and exiling or just bouncing? Cheers. |
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Post by yoritomo on Oct 16, 2012 20:06:19 GMT
First off, if you want to trade that let me know, I'll hook you up.
The card states if it leaves the battlefield. Assuming the card was on the battlefield at some point, ask yourself this question "is it on the battlefield now?" If the answer is no then it has left the battlefield.
Leaving the battlefield triggers happen regardless of the method that removed it from the battlefield. For more information you can check out section 603 of the comprehensive rules, specifically 603.6c which reads:
603.6c Leaves-the-battlefield abilities trigger when a permanent moves from the battlefield to
another zone, or when a phased-in permanent leaves the game because its owner leaves the
game. These are written as, but aren’t limited to, “When [this object] leaves the battlefield, . . .”
or “Whenever [something] is put into a graveyard from the battlefield, . . . .” An ability that
attempts to do something to the card that left the battlefield checks for it only in the first zone
that it went to. An ability that triggers when a card is put into a certain zone “from anywhere” is
never treated as a leaves-the-battlefield ability, even if an object is put into that zone from the
battlefield.
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Post by Psychichobo on Oct 16, 2012 21:14:57 GMT
Yeah, leaving the battle can include, but is not limited to:
Going to the graveyard from the battlefield (dying)
Being Exiled
Being returned to a player's hand
Being placed onto the top of a player's library, onto the bottom of a player's library, or shuffled into a player's library.
So when Angel of Serenity was Exiled via an Oblivion Ring, her leaving the battlefield ability WILL trigger. Not sure where your opponent got that idea from, it IS a bit clear, but then Magic can be a bit complicated at times..
Also, since Tokens are prominent in RTR, it's worth reminding that a token can move to other places in the same way as a regular card and can cause triggers for creatures entering/leaving the battlefield. It just merely 'poofs' out of existence upon arriving into other zones.
Finally, it's very unlikely this will ever come up, but Phasing is an exception to enter/leave the battlefield triggers. When a card phases in or out, it is treated like it had always been there/never left. Transformed cards are also similar, though some of them have to actually die to transform.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 16, 2012 23:57:05 GMT
And that "leaving the battlefield" trigger is what makes thragtusk so freaking good and very popular. there is no version of control that doesn't result in your opponent having to use 2 spells or creatures to kill it... with exception to counterspells which of course they took away most of them. Essence scatter- good option Negate- does nothing vs thragtusk Syncopate- no. Syncopate is bad and you should feel bad. the moment you pay more that 2 mana... Dissipate- okay Rewind- okay ... ... etc etc. there are 4+ mana options like bone to ash, but generally wouldn't use those. So, yea, leaving the battlefield triggers make running blue control very hard to do since bouncing is usually beneficial to the opponent. Also, since Tokens are prominent in RTR, I haven't noticed many tokens outside of armada wurm, giest of Saint Tariff, and occasionally someone will try to make a "populate deck" and be demonstrated quite quickly why it isn't that... prominent. I mean there are token cards... but i don't see them being prominent to any extent other than the 2 cards I mentioned. |
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Post by yoritomo on Oct 17, 2012 17:27:43 GMT
Yeah, because thragtusk doesn't leave tokens either.
Tokens were big in Innstrad. Big enough that they needed to be banned in block constructed. The problems that those "popluate decks" have is that all they try and do is shove as many populate cards in a 60 card deck as they can. I ran a G/W deck last FNM and got second. I used Call of the Conclave, Thragtusk, Selesnya Charm, Entreat the Angles, Garruk, and Trostani. I wasn't pumping tokens out like a fiend, but I was able to do it when I needed to.
As a side note, the deck that beat me did it with an Angel of Serenity. Just throwing that out there to bring the discussion full circle.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 18, 2012 1:45:17 GMT
Yeah, because thragtusk doesn't leave tokens either. Tokens were big in Innstrad. Big enough that they needed to be banned in block constructed. The problems that those "popluate decks" have is that all they try and do is shove as many populate cards in a 60 card deck as they can. I ran a G/W deck last FNM and got second. I used Call of the Conclave, Thragtusk, Selesnya Charm, Entreat the Angles, Garruk, and Trostani. I wasn't pumping tokens out like a fiend, but I was able to do it when I needed to. As a side note, the deck that beat me did it with an Angel of Serenity. Just throwing that out there to bring the discussion full circle. I wasnt talking about BLOCK, which is its own format outside of standard. When you see Victim of the night (I believe that is the name of the card) in the Top 8 tournament decks for block, you can see that it is a completely different format. When the top deck runs 28 lands and every UW rare+ miracle and wins, you know its a different format completely. Onto your FNM win- Nice, congratulations. I have played against similar decks. Not sure if they were using Trostani... that card doesnt impress me, and if they were using it he didnt come up. He seems like he would be great anti aggro, but... I don't know. He doesnt... do much I mean, it might just be my UW mentality, creatures on the field dont scare me. Putting cards in that require creatures on the field to work dont scare me moreso, since that just puts me in a better position. I know my deck personally trashes WG, of not mainboard than with SB. Also. Thragtusk, we know makes tokens... that was established. He isnt powerful because his token can be abused as a token. he is powerful for a very very similar reason as Kitchen Finks is. Call of the conclave, however, is a watch wolf. I like it. But, again, because its a 3/3 for 2 mana, not because its a token. Garruk Primal Hunter or relentless? I assume multi colored deck and likely midrange is a valid reason to bring me to the bias that it is relentless. Which, is about as effective with tokens as any other planeswalker that produces tokens (which is pretty exclusively garruk and Elspeth anyway) bringing entreat the angels into the conversation is cheating and you know it. Not a token card, its a win condition. It's "I miracle Entreat the Angels, game 2?" (with rare exception) These cards you listed are card that are tokens, but good for virtue of things that arent the fact they are tokens. Aramda wurm is scary cause its 2 5/5 trample creatures. Your more likely to see a resto angel on the original than a populate on the token, because the angel is far less restrictive than populate When i said, tokens... i meant like the genera tokens. You know all the lingering souls intangible virtue gather the townsfolk BS that did, for a very long time, make an impact on standard. I havent. Tokens exist... in every format... doesnt necessarily mean they are a thing. |
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Post by yoritomo on Oct 18, 2012 13:24:09 GMT
Actually it was Garruk, Primal Hunter. All my Garruk Relentless are in another deck.
Trostani is a beast. Not only is she a decent blocker, she gives you a ton of life and can pop out uncounterable creatures if you have a token on the field. Centuar healers is a good card on it's own, Trostani lets you play one every turn.
Without knowing it you've made my argument about populate decks. Like I said, most people just try to cram as many token and populate cards in a deck. What happens when you do that? You play with sub par cards that usually have no synergy. Look at what made tokens great in Innistrad, it was cheap token generators paired with cheap anthems. Instead of getting two 1/1 tokens I get two 3/3 tokens.
Now we have a ton of good cards that also happen to make tokens. How long do you think it's going to be before someone before someone figures out how to abuse this? All the cards I listed are good on their own, but become better when I can populate them with Trosani or rootbound defence. Heck, populate gives me the option to hardcast Entreat the Angels on turn 5 instead of just relying on drawing it late game for the win.
My question is why do "general tokens" have to include Lingering Souls and Gather the Townsfolk? What sense does it make to construct a token deck and just limit yourself to Innistrad token generators? Why would you ever want to populate a 1/1 token? And how do we know that tokens haven't made an impact on standard yet? The format is only two weeks old, nobody knows what's going to be good yet. Delver took 6 weeks to emerge, and that defined the format more than tokens ever did.
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Post by engangsgrill on Oct 18, 2012 13:58:41 GMT
Well, things will come and go. When they're too good they get banned and deprecated in the following sets, when they're not they gradually get beefed until they are. Tokens seem to be one of those things that are hard to balance - on one side you have things like outpost, verdant force and bitterblossom, and on the other hand things that decidedly are not. Now, if they would just bring back necropotence and dark ritual people could have as many tokens as they'd like for all that I would care  |
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Post by Psychichobo on Oct 18, 2012 22:34:18 GMT
I'm actually wondering if cards like Seance might become abusable with populate. Populate cards themselves are often hit and miss for me - I personally prefer the combat trick ones like Druid's Deliverance and Rootbound defences, and there's that awesome Growing Ranks that looks like it could be annoying. Also, Primal Hunter is extremely powerful as a token generator, as it's +1 for a 3/3 with a finisher that gives you 6/6's for further population. Hell, that Geist of Seint Traft is abusable enough with Populate - one Rootbound Defences and you've got a permanent 4/4.
Regardless though, if you're using cards like Druid's Deliverance or Rootbound Defences, you're not just fogging, you're getting a free creature and you're still able to move any large creatures around to kill off any smaller threats. It's not so much the focus on populate as the extra ways in which it can already benefit existing decks that use tokens.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Oct 19, 2012 0:03:21 GMT
Actually it was Garruk, Primal Hunter. All my Garruk Relentless are in another deck. Trostani is a beast. Not only is she a decent blocker, she gives you a ton of life and can pop out uncounterable creatures if you have a token on the field. Centuar healers is a good card on it's own, Trostani lets you play one every turn. Without knowing it you've made my argument about populate decks. Like I said, most people just try to cram as many token and populate cards in a deck. What happens when you do that? You play with sub par cards that usually have no synergy. Look at what made tokens great in Innistrad, it was cheap token generators paired with cheap anthems. Instead of getting two 1/1 tokens I get two 3/3 tokens. Now we have a ton of good cards that also happen to make tokens. How long do you think it's going to be before someone before someone figures out how to abuse this? All the cards I listed are good on their own, but become better when I can populate them with Trosani or rootbound defence. Heck, populate gives me the option to hardcast Entreat the Angels on turn 5 instead of just relying on drawing it late game for the win. My question is why do "general tokens" have to include Lingering Souls and Gather the Townsfolk? What sense does it make to construct a token deck and just limit yourself to Innistrad token generators? Why would you ever want to populate a 1/1 token? And how do we know that tokens haven't made an impact on standard yet? The format is only two weeks old, nobody knows what's going to be good yet. Delver took 6 weeks to emerge, and that defined the format more than tokens ever did. How long have you been playing? I assume you have been playing long enough to realize that no matter what standard you are in there are tokens, and that token cards that are played. There might be one or 2 sets I missed where tokens weren't actually something that existed for a while... but any sets like that were short lived. That is my point. My comment was "tokens are a thing?". Beyond the generic "I get tokens" good stuffs that basically show up all the time, there really isn't anything new except that the power level of the tokens has increased. The reason I put Lingering souls and gather the townsfolk under "generic token" stuff is by virtue of... they generate tokens... thragtusk leaves one behind when he dies... You are right, we don't know what standard will be shaped by yet. But looking at the cards that populate, there is the guild leader and root born defense being the best options. Did I say that tokens were bad? *looks back into post* *looks again* No, I didn't. I said that I don't see tokens being a "thing". Call of the Conclave is a cool card, if just for the body and nothing else. You have to have it go up against other 2 drop options (Strangleroot Giest comes to mind) and decide if you want it from there. I said that *I* don't see them making a big impact on standard. Just like I don't see syncopate doing so. I still don't consider Thragtusk a token card, nor do i consider Entreat the Angels. Thragtusk is a standard beater + Kitchen Finks put together, that has a second for you CAN populate. And yes, it is nice you can abuse that. But I don't think its a tactic to abuse thragtusk dying... Entreat the angels (echoing myself) miracles for game 2. I guess if you use the guild leader/ root born defense in tandem with cards that make tokens, the tactic can work... but then... I said "populate decks". Using the populate mechanic and making a populate deck aren't the same thing, maybe next time I should be more clear. |
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Post by engangsgrill on Nov 8, 2012 9:34:24 GMT
I must I confess I can't get quite comfortable with the current standard. However I've come across a most delightful pox deck in legacy that really fits my playstyle - I might actually shell out for the Lilianas and Tombs so I can play this IRL. Of course, it's not the kind of deck that encourages people to like you.  4 x Cursed Scroll 2 x Nether Spirit 4 x Dark Ritual 1 x Spinning Darkness 3 x Innocent Blood 4 x Inquisition of Kozilek 4 x Hymn to Tourach 4 x Sinkhole 4 x Smallpox 1 x Pox 4 x Mishra's Factory 4 x Wasteland 4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth 13 x Swamp |
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Post by Psychichobo on Nov 8, 2012 23:05:09 GMT
Looks sufficiently irritating. Though it'll cost you. 4 Tombs of Yawgmoth? 4 Hymn to Tourach? Eep.
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