Phone call with GW pertaining to grounding tests

[Jabberwocky]

Nib, I'd love our FMCs to be half the cost, but the same goes for all MCs vs Vehicles as a whole.

Flyers over vehicles might be a bigger gap than FMCs vs MCs, but we have the option to land. A lot of flyers don't. This feels like the "it's not fair we don't have transports!" cries of 5th ed.

Obviously flyers are the new black and ours aren't as solid as flying vehicles but ours are also a lot more flexible. When they release a flyer dreadnought with front armour 13, then I will join you in crying OP.



Oh, and what rolls exactly do you make that aren't random? OM is just as dependable as a defensive power for your own flyers. If you mean you might not have it, sure but you might have a skyfire nexus on your dakkafex objective in big guns never tire. You can't really have a concrete strategy until your into the actual game nowadays with so many random traits, terrain, etc.

Of course I'm not saying FMCs > Flyers, just that they are different and I don't think grounding tests are quite as bad as made out. Having 3/4s of a units shooting miss compared to normal, for a 1/3 chance of suffering a hit you can still FnP is not that bad. Yes markerlights take the mickey but so does flying a T9 monster into someones front lines.

[infornography]

Cestus Assault Ram has Front Armor 13 if I remember correctly. Just saying.

[N.I.B.]

I'm saying FMCs losing Hard to Hit from hits, but Flyers don't = makes no sense from a game balance POV.

And I've never said Flyers are OP - I'm one of the seemingly few that didn't think the sky was falling when Flyers were introduced, and I've remained skeptical to the notion that Flyer spam is OP or even good.

I've played a lot with Flyrants to this point. 50% of the games, you start without Hard to Hit and no Blessing, as your opponent has the first turn, you're basically down to 3+ armour and 5++ cover. Against many competitive armies that's a death sentence for your Flyrant, he's dead or down to a single wound or something.
So, usually going second means you have to think long and hard about reserving your Flyrant(s). If you do, you add more random to your detriment. It also means you should be prepared to do this by investing the points for HC. And you come onbard without Blessings, plus you make target priority easier for your opponent.

Grounded on hits is too weak.

[dakkathrope]

I have to agree that grounding tests should be done from wounding. In my opinion it would make the point cost of a FMC much less of a kick in the pants

[Jabberwocky]

The problem there is, balancing for things like iron arm, 3+ armour and FnP, which FMCs have access to, to negate wounds.

If our FMC is immune to small arms, it makes them very, very powerful as they can't even be assaulted to tarpit.

I can see why they made it hits. A good compromise might have been similar to 'strikedown', whereby it triggers on saves made and failed. So they have to hit and wound, but we can still save/FnP. This will let some small arms through but not the low strength stuff.

Personally though, my FMCs aren't struggling with 3+ to stay aloft, even from hits.

[infornography]

Just to point out, a storm raven is just as resistant to small arms as a flyrant with +3 toughness and EW. Both require S6 just to hurt


Just to clarify, I think Nids are crazy good right now with the exception of our anti air capabilities which are ... well the dakka flyrant. I just find it insulting that any hit of any kind can cause him to lose a wound and be more vulnerable at the same time. On the off chance that I actually pull Iron Arm for my flyrant, he still has to cast it and can still be dropped out of the sky by a bored guardsman.

This wouldn't be so bad if we had similar options for dealing with storm ravens. We don't. We have to try to glance them to death with a dakka flyrant, fire a just absurd quantity of ordinance at it in the hopes of even hitting, or ignore a very painful opponent.

[dakkathrope]

I think part of it, for me, is being grounded from the first thing that shoots me more often than not

[rpricew]

Sept 14, 2012 17:08:50 GMT infornography said:

Just to point out, a storm raven is just as resistant to small arms as a flyrant with +3 toughness and EW. Both require S6 just to hurt

The problem with this is the Storm Raven comes standard with it's durability; while your statement requires two random psychic powers to be cast on the same MC in order for it to maybe be as durable. One from itself, and the other from another MC within range.

Also, this requires the Flyrant to be on the board through your opponent's shooting phase unprotected unless you get, and keep, first turn and starting your Flyrant on the board that round.

I'm not saying once the powers go off, then it's not a tough as nails critter. But it's still situational at best and I don't think it makes a very good argument for the FMC vs Flyers.

[Illithid]

However, the Stormraven takes two hits and it is a wreck. We also have weight of shots to bring a Stormraven / dakkajet or whatever else we are facing down.

I think it is fair that we take grounding tests. 'Iron Arm', 'It Will Not Die' and 'Endurance' have seriously added to the survivability of the Flyrant. You also need to fail a 3+ save against that S9 hit. A 2/3 chance of passing is not bad.

Without this rule, they would be serious cheese. We have a 50% chance of having first turn just by rolling the die, and then the opponent may give it to us anyway, seeing us start off 'Swooping'.

I just am not seeing flyers as a huge threat yet, they are dangerous - yes, but I have played a few flyer heavy lists now and found some tactics that make them less effective. They are just something new to deal with.

[Anggul]

That was clearly just his really, really bad attempt at justifying it so he can put the phone down and carrying on with what he was doing.

[Jabberwocky]

A storm raven is durable but it isn't as flexible. It has no options for how it deploys, it cannot assault, it cannot go into hover mode, it doesn't have support capabilities beyond it's firepower. The vehicle damage table also means any pen could force it to snapfire, remove a weapon, or outright destroy it on the first hit.

Not to say they aren't good but like I said originally, apples and oranges.

[free]

i like that FMCs are not flyers. I like that nids are different. Different means there will be somethings other armies have that we dont and vice versa. If you want the same as everyone else, go spacemarine... :-)

Nids are great in 6th. my nids havent lost a single battle so far (except for a first test run 5 min after we got the rulebook where we played every other rule wrong :-))

[Raven]

Sept 14, 2012 23:36:23 GMT Illithid said:

You also need to fail a 3+ save against that S9 hit.

Well I don't know about you but my Flyrants don't have 3+ invulnerable saves to take against AP2 attacks.

[coredump]

I think he is talking about the Grounding test itself.

[Illithid]

Sept 15, 2012 10:31:50 GMT Raven said:

Sept 14, 2012 23:36:23 GMT Illithid said:

You also need to fail a 3+ save against that S9 hit.

Well I don't know about you but my Flyrants don't have 3+ invulnerable saves to take against AP2 attacks.

The Grounding Save?

And how many of those AP2 attacks are going to hit you when they need 6's to hit? At Toughness 8 due to Iron Arm, those AP2 attacks will also need either (depending on the weapon) a 3+, 4+ or even a 5+ to wound.

We can not have everything and right now, I think the Flyrant is a great addition to our force.