Big hit on my army

[wisdomseyes1]

Hey all. Hope you know me by now

So, my friends have all moved away and I am now playing at my Games workshop. And as some of you reading this may know, they have a very hard time with playing the rules correctly and I have been having to correct them a lot. Especially with things like the tyranid players (plural) there believing that hive tyrants had 3 psychic powers, mastery level 3, and that the swarmlord was mastery level 4... based on the FAQ.

It hurt... it hurt more to tell them that lictors cant infiltrate and genestealers can assault on the turn they arrive and it isnt like fantasy where a failed charge you still move.

ON TOPIC! Some of the people here may remember my thread on transitioning back into tournament play. This is still true, but I seem to have reached a major drawback.

I don't own tervigons.

Before the model came out, my hive Tyrant and Carnifex modeled with gants on the base were acceptable tervigon models. This is no longer true. This means that in the mean time, while working up the funds to actually get real tervigon models so no one complains, I wont be able to play with the tervigon.

I have played 5 games or so since the loss of my favorite troops choice. 3 games I tied and 2 I lost. That doubles my loss total in 6th edition and I will not accept that without a fight.

SO, here is what I am asking.

How would I make a strong base of models with a list whose T6 only consists of a carnifex, a tyrant, 2 trygons, and 3 hive guard? Then with my Tyranid Prime (which I can only take one of because the tyrant is an HQ slot) which is T5. Mind you, that implies that the rest of the list is T3 (MAYBE 4), basically no armor, and fills up the rest of 1750-1850 points.


An example list of something that I have been trying is

1750


Hive Tyrant
- Dual Biomancy
- Dual Devourers
- Armored Shell
- Old Adversary
=240
Tyranid Prime
- Dual BS
- Talons
- Toxin Sacs
- Regeneration
=110

3 Hive Guard
=150
7 Y genestealers
=161
7 Y genestealers
=161

20 Hormagants
- Toxin Sacs
=160
20 Termagant
=100
16 Termagant
- Devourers
- Spore
=200

Trygon Prime
=240
Trygon
=200
== 1748


There is a lot of stuff I don’t Like about this list that I won’t really be able to change until I gets money.

[yellow]My question is really: Vs Tau and orks or really any non marine armies with lots of shooting, how d you get your gants to survive? Turn 3 or so I am out of troops choices almost altogether and my Monstrous creatures are gone almost gone.[/yellow]

On a brighter note, my hive tyrant has never died because the armored shell makes his feel near indestructible to the opponents and most opponents go for the faster and more threatening looking (and in practice as well I have noticed) Tyrgons charging forward.

This list was already revised many times based on what I have started noticing in the GWS, but I am still open for suggestions and will be more than happy to provide a list of models I own if need be.

I was toying with this idea… instead of TS on my hormagaunts, TS/AG on my termagants for the same price. My LGS seems to have a fear of hormagaunts that supersedes that of genestealers. I could use that to my advantage for a little while, the hormagaunts a first wave of the assault dies in droves but are only 120 points for 20 of them, then the termagants slowly creeping behind and destroy my opponent in close combat on a counter attack basically unhindered.

I also have every intention of putting my tyranid prime with my hive guard (something I haven’t tried yet) and marching him forward with them, look out sir keeping them alive and the prime herself being a close combat buff making it hard to get near the hive guard and thinking “easy kill”

Suggestions would be appreciated and ideas on how to fix my issue of scoring and volumes of shots without having the tervigon (which in my head is the only solution) would be appreciated.

[ravengoescaw]

This maybe just me and my love for warriors I would drop one unit of YGs, and down grade the other to genestealers w/TS, use those pints for warriors with RC, DS, and TS, leaveing you 23 points I would spend 17 of the on another genestealer, leavein 6 pts, spend 5 to upgrade your prime to BS&LW, one pt left over close enough., this gives you two more troop choices, one that can fill many roles, the other can create some havok, steal an objective mid map, or who knows. I also love Genestealers.

[rpricew]

Do you have a Dakkafex? How about a doom?

I say drop the Trygon Prime for a Dakkafex in a pod. Add on the doom in a pod and lose the 2nd unit of Ymgarls. Bump the 7 to an 8 on the remaining Ymgarls. Change your 20 Termagant unit into some Warriors and outflank them with Hive commander. Make good use of terrain for turn one, using the Tyrant for back and middle field Synapse.

Most armies can't handle the Ymgarls, Doom, Dakkafex and warriors showing up all at once with a Trygon and Hive Tyrant advancing towards them.

Keep toxin on Horms, if you enfeeble a unit then they hit and get to re-roll wounds... It's brutal. Points aren't perfect, but you should be close.

[andy089]

As you're stuck because you don't own the models and can't really buy any it would be nice to know what models you DO have lying around.

So far I only "played" theory-hammer, but I'll add my 2 cents anyway:

If you have zoanthropes, go for them. they could potentially make your guys more resilient and/or deadly and/or provide some AT.
If you have a dakkafex lying around - go for it. Drop him somewhere it really hurts.
Have you got any more spores left? If so, try to drop in both units of termagants close to objectives to protect them from fire while having some models there at the end of the game.
I would keep the Trygon Prime.

You might want to invest in an aegis defence line (or just get some glue and random nid bits to create your own), for juicy cover saves...

[gigasnail]

if you have people that aren't letting your modded fexes (on an appropriate sized base) run as tervigons, i dunno, i'd probably label them as TFG. seriously. how many years before we got a model, and when we do get in it's $$$$? if you're wanting into tourneys again, check w/ the organizer and see what they'll let fly.

i have one of the new ones, one scratch built beast, and a couple of spare oval bases i'll stickytack a carnifex onto if i need more than two tervs. still have one new on in the box (birthdays at work are awesome, 3/5 of us play 40k).

[fragile]

Couple things we need to know. What else do you have available and how do you prefer to play your games. Aggressive ? Defensive ?


Overall I would get rid of the Devilgants and spore. Trade them in for plain Terms. That gives you about 60 if i did the math right. Break those down into 4-5 units for 12-15. This gives you a wider objective scoring base. It also reduces the ability of the enemy to concentrate on just 3 troop choices to deny you the game. Having 5-6 Troops is the best power we have and that is the power the Terv brings to the board.

Overall I think you lack speed. What turn are you usually engaging the enemy? 3?

Horms are ok, but overall I like the speed of Gargs for a screening force. They can tie up the enemy very quickly (although you have Ymgarls for that too) and tarpit til your MC's arrive.

A batrep or two would really help here for us to see how you play and what it going on with your guys. With that we can give you further thoughts.

[wisdomseyes1]

Agressive and defensive gameplay vary in the opposing forces and the models I am using.

Me thinks people are missing the point a bit. I am more askin simply about the gants as troops. Without Tervigon support, how would you play them against most enemies? Offensively? Difensively? Ext.

Usually my tervigons and gants would take a defensive support role providing cover/ feel no pain support and holding objectives. Can't do that without tervigons.

And my LGS doesn't allow things that aren't "well modeled" which means, when the model wasn't defined, my tyrants and arnifexen were okay. Now, they need to be a bit bigger and have a lt least a sac representation on an oval base. If there are not met then its not okay to play. Is very strict, mostly for the purposes of selling models.

It was asked several times, so I'll answer:

Tyrant (magnets)
Fex (magnets)
^gants on base to make them Tervigons

2 tyranid primes (magnets)

100 termagants (60 primed and have devourers modeled, 40 Fleshborers. People can't tell the difference though)
25 hormagaunts
15 genestealers

3 give guard (I traded my others away a while ago... Bad choice)

2 spores
2 trygons

No warriors. Any warriors I have become hive guard with a bit of conversion

I'll give battle reports the next time I play.

I feel like I am forgetting something...

[Jabberwocky]

Gants can still survive but it has to be done differently.

One option is to keep them out of synapse (though ideally have synapse behind them) and go to ground in ruins/ADL/ any 4+ terrain, giving them 2+ cover. This means they aren't in real danger until flamers or assaulters come near.

Doing this with your spored devilgants will probably be easier and even gone to ground they land as many hits as fleshborer gants. People will not want to assault into that much overwatch either.

The other option is reserving them and hiding them. Not glamorous but it works if they don't draw attention. Maybe even split the unit.

[depletor [H5ed]]

Did you already think of spamming troops? I would use 6 large troop choices, hive commander and go for an almost entirely deep striking swarm.

[DarkGuard]

Well Gaunts without Tervigon support become objective holders and bullet catchers. I'd maybe consider using two units of 10 which can sit on separate objectives in cover and stay put, or be used as separate (but small) screens. If you want them to be damaging without the Tervigon then you need to give them devourers, which you have already done.

[Psychichobo]

You mentioned your Tyrant seems fairly durable, and if you ever get warriors you make them hive guard. What if you used magnets/blue tack/whatever and whipped up some Tyrant Guard somehow and tried them out? Your durable Tyrant could then spread his posse out and screen a few things, get some board presence going that would make maneuverability a bit awkward for opponents.

[wisdomseyes1]

Hobo: long ago, in a land not so far away, hat my models actually were didn't matter for the purposes of game play. However, since then... It started mattering. I have used tyrant guard on tyrants before. I have used Flyrants. I have used big mama (the swarmlord). I have used basically every variant of tyrant at least twice, and every time I have come to the same conclusion... "this is too many points"

Now, in MY meta, so far, I have seen little ap2 outside of close combat. That might change though since I have unfortunately not played against any MeQ since arriving at the store. I have noticed people the first time they play me try and kill the tyrant, his feel no pain and IWND or t7-9 while the 2+ armor hold her steady... And the second game or about turn 4... They give up.

H5ed: I had not, but the idea had been brought up.

Jaberwocky: the ruins my shop seems to have dont tend to be area terrain, so going to ground looks a lot like 3+. Still effective and I know full and well about going to ground out of synapse. It is just awkward to pull off, especially when terrain is set up before hand to look cool and therefore doesnt have a representation of a lot of it rather than being set up with terrain destiny.

[Jabberwocky]

If terrain is an issue, I'd suggest an ADL in larger games. The $ cost is relatively low, the points cost is very low for what you get and it doesn't even need to be modded as you can say it belonged to the defenders but has been overrun. That'll give you access to 2+ cover when gtg.

I've always found when running less troops you need to be dangerously aggressive with your other units such as Tyrants to draw the fire. Maybe if your unkillable tyrant made more effort to be in their face or you just talked it up more, he would actually protect your little guys a bit more.

[wisdomseyes1]

Well, my tyrant can no longer be said to be unkillable... ;(


Grey Knights
Grandmaster (orbital strike)
Inquisitor with dual daemon Blades

5 Terminators (swords)
5 Terminators (swords)
5 Terminators (swords) w/ a Techpriest *The Dude who gets up on a 4+ and gets a chance every turn was there as well* He informed me it’s a special sergeant, and therefore a troop… I didn’t question him, but I thought that was stupid. Then I remembered who wrote the book.
Psilencers in each unit. They also all had sergeants with master crafted daemonhammers

5 Purifiers (halberts and their OP gun, not sure what it is called)
5 Pufifiers and their OP gun, not sure what it is called)
Razorback with autocannon? (heavy 4 rending… never can remember if that’s auto or assault) w/ Psybolts

Venerable Drednaught with autocannon and a Dreadnaught CC weapon with a built in storm bolter.

If it has options to grenades (the grandmaster and techpriest are the only ones I remember) he took them… all of them. He intends to model them with sacs of grenades XD Also, if he could take psybolts on something that is shooting, he probably did.

This list should come out to around 1850. It’s what I remember off hand, and anything else was negligible. If something in the list is wrong, its because I have no freaking clue what marines can and cant take and I can hardly remember what the names of marines outside of tactical squads are called… grey knights just add a bunch of new vocab for me.

Tyranids
HQ
Hive Tyrant
- Armored Shell
- Dual Devourers
- Got Enfeeble and Warp speed
=240

Tyranid Prime
- Lash Whip Bone swords
- Deathspitter
- Regen
=110

Elite
3 Hive Guard
= 150
7 Y genes
=161

Troops
15 Termagant
15 Termagant
15 Devilgant
15 Devilgant
15 Devilgant
15 Devilgant

Trygon Prime 240
Trygon 200
== 1850
^ Not my best list… but *shrugs* Its what I have, its what I can work with
Night fighting was not in effect, my warlord was my hive tyrant, his was his grand master. Pitched battle/ 2+d3 mysterious objectives (a ‘1’) and I failed to seize. We got 4 total objectives that game.
My objectives were placed behind the little terrain I had access to. He placed his objectives out in the open away from cover but just in range of cover to stop me from placing objectives over there. Smart boy.

He went first, night fighting was not in effect. Because he went first, he also choose the side with basically ALL the cover. And when I say all of it, I really mean all of it. I had a tall skinny building and a hut on my side of the field. There was a ruin near his deployment, but in the center of the table, and a crater near mine, but again in the center of the table.

Turn one, pretty simple. I had a tyrant and there was no area terrain on my side of the table. First blood and slay the warlord went to him pretty quickly, but honestly in the defense of my tyrant and my opponent, he did get 3 rending hits, and then plenty more attention Also, orbital bombardment that causes perils of the warp against psykers didn’t help much. But the events coming after that justify it quite a bit. Excess shots he had went into a unit of devilgants I had deployed nearby, who were being babysat by my Tyranid prime attached to hive guard. There were only 4 of them left…

My turn one, I shot into his terminators with devilgants that were in range, ran up with any that were not. My hive guards were just out of range of the razorback. The only exception is the single unit of 15 termagants who were now out of synapse thanks to my tyrant dying, who were clumped behind the building, trying as hard as possible to not be seen. My trygon Prime got into cover (barely) getting a 6 and reaching the area terrain with its run roll. That was about the jist of my turn, killing about 3 terminators.

Top of turn 2: His terminators moved up even closer, (flanking a unit of purifiers to come after my lone 15 man gant unit holding my objective) the grand master moving for the first time. Since I was moving closer to get into range, he was close enough to justify 7” charge ranges. He shot the same things that he did with his army into my tyrant into my Trygon. My trygon was a bit more resilient, though, taking 4 wounds just as the tyrant… but having 6 wounds base is pretty big. He then went into assault, declaring a charge on my trygon first with his dreadnaught, and making it, then declaring a charge with his terminators to avoid the overwatch. More terminators charged my Tyranid prime and friends, but failed to make it. Unit with techpriest and the zombeh marine charged my trygon prime. I challenged and he (stupidly and he admitted it was a bad idea) accepted with the zombeh.

My normal trygon died, but took the dreadnaught with him. My prime took her prey and slaughtered it, without taking a wound.
He also charged 2 terminators into a 8 man devilgant unit, losing one guy to overwatch, but otherwise the combat was uneventful.

Bottom of turn 2: Now it was my turn, and I still had 3 units of devils. I shot and killed a few terminators. There was one unit of terminators that was put down to 2 models, the other had 3 models. My Ygenes came in, hidden in the ruins where my Trygon prime justsohappens to have moved into for cover and is currently having issues with terminators and techpriest multi assault.

Wondering why that dual Blade Inquisitor hasn’t come up yet? Yes, cause it’s been moving up… very slowly. I decided that since all my MC’s were either dead or indisposed, I would ignore the razorback for a while. Shot my hive guard into the poor inquisitor with a 4+ armor save and watched him go splat. I also shot a a 15 strong devilgant unit and a deathspitter into the grandmaster, and did one wound. Then my Tyranid Prime charged and… died… but gave him another wound My Devilgants failed to do anything and didn’t die yet again. Ygenes charged and got 6 rending hits into the terminators trying to kill my trygon and my trygon killed the techpriest, double consolidation.

Top ofTurn 3: Those purifiers I basically ignored, yes, they killed 8 gants in shooting, causing moral and having them run off the board. So that objective I was basically holding, yes it wasn’t mine anymore. Thankfully his scoring was clear across the board, so I was okay. He charged what was now 1 Hive guard (due to his autocannon firing needing to go somewhere) with his grandmaster and died to overwatch. The Zombeh marine stood back up and charged my trygon Prime, aiming for that last wound he needed to knock it out. Missed every attack, and died. Consolidation is mine
And those 6 gants, they killed that last terminator in the unit they were locked in combat with.

Bottom of Turn 3: my Y genes move up and assault the unmoving razorback, annihilating it. My trygon Prime with one wound left just moves… nothing special. That purifier unit that killed my vanilla gants is dead now from fire caused by devilgants.

Top of turn 4: Not much left on either table. I have my 1 wound trygon, my y genes (very close to a full strength purifier unit) a 15 man devil unit in a crater near an objective that I would have to move out of to get to… not an issue unless I lose synapse this turn (this is a good example of foreshadowing) and a 6 man unit who hasn’t been in synapse since last turn, but does have cover. He has the purifiers, his zombie (who got back up again…) and I believe that is it. He finally kills my trygon prime with his I6 zombieh, and its about time, honestly. It should have been downed long ago. My Y genestealers get shot by the purifiers and lose 5 guys.

Bottom of 4: the game is getting close now. Both gant units fail IB on a double 6. One unit runs, one kills the zombie. My 2 Y genes charge choosing attacks, against the purifiers. If it’s a shock that they died to overwatch… well the more you know.

Top of turn 5: zombie doesn’t get back up, purifiers shoot into the 15 man gant unit, score 6 wounds… I save 4 of them.

Bottom of 5: My 13 man unit now passes IB (the other fails again and runs), moves out onto the objective, and fires into the purifiers, who lose 4 guys.
Game continues.

Top of 6: Zombie doesn’t get back up. We end the game there. If the zombie got up, he would have won by secondary objectives, since he could get up and contest the objective, else I can very realistically win via total annihilation.

My thoughts… This list is (please do not swear). It was dumb luck I won this game, and that isn’t something that should happen.
--------------------------------
I found an old zoantrope model I used to use for the DoM, but it is metal and the tail has snapped off from the pillar thing it stands on. I COULD use that in my lists, not sure how it would work out in this edition. From what I have seen, there very few vehicles, the vehicles that are taken are taken either because my opponent has to (devilfish for pathfinders) or for their firepower support (razorbacks, psiflement, dakkajets, ext) I am not sure if I would replace Catalysm for telekenisis (to aim for shockwave and have plenty of powers that I can get) telepathy (psychic shriek fits the leadership theme, is pretty similar to the nova shriek tyrants have with the exception its witchfire OR puppetmaster for obvious reasons) Biomancy (hope for iron arm or endurance, baser power is… well it can get my wounds up.) or just keep catalysm and use the largeblastness to my advantage.

[yellow]Question that I just thought about… Leech Life on the doom… do I gain 2 wounds for each wound I inflict with it? RAW and very little looking into it, I believe it does, but I would like clarification[/yellow]

I could possibly make a deepstrike centric list and see how that works out, offset the mass low toughness by moving them away from the danger, while keeping my bigger guys on the board and hopefully more cover. Thoughts on that idea?

[coredump]

I think you would get 2 W from each one dealt.