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Post by leeroy1986 on Aug 16, 2012 22:22:58 GMT
There seems to be alot of emerging Daemon players in my area so i'm wondering how you fellow Nid players combat Daemons. Bloodthirsters: Finding difficult to deal with, seems to fly about vector striking stuff then picks a weak target to attack. Usually I gound them eventually and lock them in combat with Tervifexes or Trygons. Now my problem with Tervifexes is they hit on 5's and if the gaunts come in the Thirster just hits them. So it seems my Tervifex with Iron arm gets locked in combat forever but barely takes wounds OR a Trygon turns up and it's a 50-50 fight, so i've been opting for the Tervifexes lately. Other Greater Daemons don't bother me so much because you can either kill them in combat or Devourer them down with relative ease. Screamers:A guy turned upto the club today with 27 of these blighters and during the New Daemon update they just ran straight through the opposing army. Being strength 5, ap2 armour bane, hammer of wrarth, etc, they seem ridiculous now. I haven't faced them yet though I guess only way is to shoot them down really. Troops:Plague Bearers just sit on objectives, tough but don't do much. Bloodletters get shot, hit hard but easy to shoot down. Horrors put out lots of shots, only real reason for them is to try and ground a flyer. So most people in my area are allying them with Chaos Space Marines and getting so good troops like tonight was Noise Marines, but Plague Marines and Berzerkers can be nasty too.
Fateweaver:All I keep hearing is about how amazing this guy is especially with allies. Only thing I can think to do is to try and gun him down with a flying Dakkarant, he doesn't look too tough but seems incredibly cheesy. The other special ones I guess again not too hard to deal with, can be dealt with in combat or supressive firepower.
Daemon Princes:Considering you have a Thirster or 2 and maybe Fateweaver and these guys on top i'm finding it relatively difficult to deal with the targets. Again today my Tervifexes got stuck in melee, but were winning slowly overtime thanks to Iron Arm, but it's like hitting a brick wall and you kinda need to be lucky to get Iron arm too. Others:Hounds seem weak pretty sure poison gaunts can do the business. Fiends, could be tough again i'd look for supressive fire or a hard melee unit. Beasts of Nurgle seem rubbish, no need to worry. Flamers, seems okay just don't charge them in combat  Shoot them to death I reckon! Bloodcrushers again another nails Daemon unit, lots and lots of shooting probably, wouldn't want a non-iron armed MC against them. Seekers seem fragile a bit of shooting could take them down I reckon. Nurglings, waste of space. Soul Grinders can easily be wrecked in melee. I reckon probably lots and lots of Dakka, Tyrants, Hive Guard and Fexes to do the business vs these guys, but I'm not sure. SO yeah I'm finding Daemons/Chaos allies a hard matchup, what do you guys generally do vs them? Leeroy |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 17, 2012 0:37:03 GMT
Bloodthirsters are great.
Lords of change got a huge boon as well.
Great unclean ones are actually REALLY hard to deal with and are cheap. The only issue with ten is that they aren't FMC.
You should have similar issues with lords of change that you do with Bloodthirsters.
Now... Troops... Daemons don't have the greatest troops. We usually take min units. PLAGUEBEARERS GOT WORSE with the edition switch. Like... Godly worse. No more going to ground to be scarily better than plague marines. They... Don't do anything though. That is problematic. Horrors are good vs most enemies (volumes of shots, cheap bolt, ap4 is relevant vs toasters). 5 man unit is only 95 points.
Screamers are "bolter bait" devourers should be enough.
Khorne dogs (flesh hounds) are really only to tie up units and are great vs grey knights
No issues with fiends? Or flamers? I know crushers fell out of favor with hell blades being stupid now, but they aren't really a bad option.
I have to go to dinner, I'll post later on my idea for counters for things I haven't mentioned.
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Post by rampagingfex on Aug 17, 2012 0:55:30 GMT
I think this may be due to people's love with the new psychic powers and the near non-existence of the previously omnipresent null zone librarian. We may see this reduced some once people have realized that librarians are still really good and null zone still hurts daemons really badly. Until then...
Take advantage of their reserve rules. Liberal use of gaunts to control where they can deep strike is advised. Understand how their beacons work, and how their waves come in. Devourer the squishy ones when they land, and tarpit the big ones. The troops are actually the ones most likely to be assaultable.
I'm going to have to go look at screamers again. Jetbikes with meltabombs doesn't seem that scary to nids, but the ability to land out of threat range and use mobility to get around is probably better now. They don't really score that often, and they can be shot easily enough. They don't have a ton of attacks and are somewhat expensive. Seems like hive guard and gaunts of all types should be good against them.
Fateweaver is pretty stupid good. He's incredibly difficult to kill and makes everyone around him incredibly difficult to kill. Tarpitting seems the best play, but with my go to solution of null zone not an option for nids I'm not really sure what to do other than to overwhelm one target at a time.
-RF
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Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 17, 2012 6:56:48 GMT
Deathleaper targetting fateweaver would be nice, since he has to pass a LD test every time he takes a wound, to stay in the game.
I think most daemons just require volume of fire since they are eternal warriors with invuln saves anyway. Plenty of devourers and brainleech.
I've not played them in 6th, only chaos marines, but they do have some solid armies they can pull together now with allies. Especially with FMCs.
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Post by eldar88 on Aug 17, 2012 7:11:14 GMT
the problem we've got v daemons is, you may as well forget Shadow in the warp even existed, none of the Daemons shooting is psychic, however they don't how any bonuses to Deny the witch either, no psykers what so ever.
Fateweaver, is good but 1 lucky (and mean VERY lucky hit) can take him out (LD test at LD 9, for each and every unsaved wound suffered fail a single one and he dies, yes a single fleashborer round can kill him, or even an impact hit from being grounded)
Plaugebearers, the only reilable way I can think of to deal with them is by either mass shooting or smash attcaks.
All Khorne / Slannesh units, shoot them as soon as they show up/ assault them, their not that resilent. 5+ Inv, not hard unless FW is around, then just make him top priority to kill.
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Post by jifel on Aug 17, 2012 14:33:05 GMT
GANTS. LOT OF EM. Ok, really though. He has to deepstrike, so set up a base with a lot of models where he has to deepstrike away from your army (make a circle ish, no gaps.) At this point, Toxin Hormagaunts rape everything. Bloodthirster? SWARM! Fateweaver? SWARM!
If youre tailoring, Id say Tervigons with Toxin/Adrenal surrounded by Deathgants. The no AP does nothing with their invulns, and that many shots will down an MC. Shoot down Screamers, and with flamers assault with two units. One will die, the other should kill them if you put a lot of poison wounds in. If it's objectives really just round up the wagons. Trust me, we can outshoot them with Dakkagants, and then if he comes close assault with massed numbers.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 17, 2012 17:43:30 GMT
Okay i have more time. Bloodthirsters are mean. I actually can't honestly say I know how to deal with them with the new rules. Before I would say volumes of shots, or charge with toxin gaunts and drag it down, but invulnerable, snapshots, and you can't charge him make for a lethal combo. I don't know a "kill it easily" thing other than to try the old stuff when you can. But a good daemon player isn't going to just put his bloodthrister next to you. So most of your shooting and assaulting will be out of range. Lords of change are similar, but have a S8 AP1 gun (and 3 S5 ap3 shots... And vector strike... And the ability to fire them all and sometimes fire at different targets) in place of close combat prowess. Lords of change are not bad in close combat, it just won't come up much... You can however now smash with them, so close combat vs land raider for llawls. LoC vs tyranid won't ever touch the ground. There isnt any reason. Fatecrusher is dead. I mean it wasn't a very good build last edition either, it was just funny (it was known as daemon cheese but tournament lists that did well used 4 Tzeentch chariots). The fateweaver has Never died in any games I have played with him. Ignoring the point sink is usually the best idea, just like any other death star. Because the fateweaver not only costs 83 points more than lords of change, but they also had -1 on every stat across the board (bar BS). Karios can't really take advantage of everything that lords of change can. Not well. For its price, with an army like daemons... It might be a good idea for people to not use him. Against tyranids best idea is devourers. T5 we have a much better chance. Charging him with vanilla gants or any gants really if he gets grounded (which happens regardless of if he passes his saves or actually takes the wound. He fails that grounded test you an charge him) and tying him down. At that point, he wont be able to shoot any weapons (save one, an that one will probably save him turning a gant into a chaos spawn) and keeping him in one place not being able to support the army. Because of his default speed, close combat supporters like bloodcrushers will be far away. Fiends... However..... Hmmm.... Kugath is extremely expensive. He isn't much different than a great unclean one. His 140 points increase is an extra wound, an extra attack, a large blast an template (poison ignores armor), and, get this, the ability to spawn 35 point models every turn. Assuming, however, kugath came down turn 1, rolled a 4 up turn 2. then the 35 point model enters via deep strike. A single model of course. Nurglings... Are not worth 35 points.... They cost 35 points but they are not worth it, and that was factored into the plague fathers cost. Skarbrand... Just kill him like the old bloodthirsters. Probably one of the slower greater daemons. You want to deal with plagubearers? Assault them You want to deal with pink horrors? Assault them You want to deal with blood letters? Dot expect to see them  (shoot them) You want to deal with daemonettes? Shoot them. Fiends of slaanesh and flamers of Tzeentch now have the same survivability. 2 wounds, t4, 5++. Fiends are still better, with their damage output and range. (I rather be in close combat than next to a unit I just flamed or in the middle of enemy lines) but they are cost accordingly. To beat either, mass fire. T4 and a 5+ save don't go very far, even with 2 wounds. You can also lock flamers into close combat with a unit of 10 gants and watch how many turns it's a standstill. Screamers: bolter bait. Mass fire. Don't let them charge you. Make sure your opponent isnt trying to get a 3+ coversave from turbo boosting (as that doesnt exist anymore) and taking all of his dangerous terrain tests from moving in difficult and area (which is difficult as well) Khorne dogs you shouldn't really have to plan against. I guess a 10 dog unit could charge a Tervigon that pooped out and tie it down (assuming no crushing claws it warp speed) but with tyranids I see no real issue. They are taken by daemons players because they are good at killing light infantry like guard and they tie down grey knights forever with their 2+ save vs force weapons. Seekers are like fiends but easier to kill to bolters, can't climb buildings, and are cheaper. Fiends all the way, just kill ten the same way if they arise. Daemon princes come in 2 flavors, 3 in a fluffy list, 4 in a tailored against grey knights and psykers list Tzeentch: taken for the bolt. Often doesn't get iron hide (power armor) because the weapons it faces are usually missiles and cannons. Nurgle: taken for anti infantry. Usually given iron hide because it doesn't have a 4++ and it needs protection against bolter fire. Both of these have the same chance of Daemonic flight. That said, Tzeentch princes have often gone without it because of the expense plus them wanting to stay away from the opponent and shoot. With new FMC rules, the 60 points might be worth it. Still iffy on that but every daemon player will be abusing their FMC status for a while so expect to see them. You take them down just like any other FMC. I don't know anything about new chariots, and I refuse to use them myself because they are vehicles >_> Soul grinders, close combat with monstrous creatures because you can't charge them with termagants anymore. Things you probably won't see... Beasts of Nurgle. Not sure by no one loves these guys. Guess yet are afraid of rolling 1's on their attacks. They seem fun fluff wise and game wise. |
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Post by leeroy1986 on Aug 17, 2012 19:10:13 GMT
Bloodthirsters are great. So how do YOU deal with them as a Tyranid player? Which is why they ally with Chaos Marines. Have you seen the new rules for Screamers? they're nails! I know which is why I want to know how people usually deal with them. Leeroy |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 18, 2012 1:03:24 GMT
My question was indicting you didn't include them in the list, which confused me.
Your best chance against Bloodthirsters is grounded tests and then charge them with a large brood of gants in synapse. Dragdown wounds (no retreat) don't exist anymore, so the 5 attacks from Bloodthirsters will take a while to break a unit of 20 gants in synapse. Not very long, but long enough.
But that requires a grounded test to fail, and requires a hit first... It's focus fire central. You could also hope the Bloodthirsters charges something itself, which means you will will probably lose the unit it charges... But it means you have a chance to charge it. And hopefully lock it down.
Thing is, daemons and tyranids play in similar ways. At least in the sense they don't have Rambo units. Every unit supports every other unit in some way (so long as the list is made correctly). They have to with no vehicles and their deployment type. A FMC with a great invuln doesn't have much to worry about except the turn it comes down. The turn it comes down is where it's most vulnerable. Tyranids range is lacking in that though, so they can put a Bloodthirsters pretty far off and make it safe. Though, that makes useless until turn 3 on the preferred wave. It's all about how the scatter dice rolls and how the daemon player himself judges the table. An army that always starts in reserves has to judge the situation and deploy accordingly.
Onto screamers. The only rules for screamers that are significant in my comment are t4, 2 wounds, and a 5++. Their actual skill in combat is more lethal to OTHER armies (4 s5 ap2 armor bane attacks on the charge) devourers and their 25 point cost, and only having abilities include combat (unless you found their slashing bombing run move) mean that they won't be good until turn 2 at best, with heavy risk to themselves (devourers, bolters)
I don't deny their prowess in combat, I question their ability to survive infantry fire.
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Post by fragile on Aug 18, 2012 4:00:17 GMT
Enfeeble is your friend. Use it whenever you can. Depending on how EW/ FNP / ID work out, it could get even better.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Aug 18, 2012 12:54:56 GMT
Sorry just read all of your posts correctly.
Thirster:- So shoot him try and ground him, try and shoot the (please do not swear) out of him and finish him off in assault. My biggest issue is the WS10 meaning only Trygons can hit them on 4's, guess I should try and take him out with a Tyrant or Swarmlord and not a Tervigon.
Screamers concern me because they seemingly have a good chance to take out TMC's. I guess my best option is gaunts, again shoot them up and send lots of gaunts in combat. My biggest issue is alot of builds I use don't use alot of gaunts, guess I need to figure out some army list.
Fateweaver:- Having read the rules for him more closely now im not really afraid of this guy anymore, it's just 1 Daemon player at my club swears by him, looking at him, pretty much any unit can take him out.
Daemon Princes, same sort of thing guess I need to shoot them a bit more.
My biggest problem tbh guys is the high WS MC's, so I guess some more shooting at them maybe required =) Thanks for the input though.
Leeroy.
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Post by apaosa on Aug 18, 2012 13:57:58 GMT
Hiding a broodlord near your lines can deter FMCs from wanting to Glide. Hypnotic Gaze is still very viable.
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Post by Priest on Aug 18, 2012 14:36:29 GMT
My friend who i regularly play against uses daemons and i always beat him  I would always recommend taking out fateweaver as soon as possible since he can be a major pain in later game if you don't. Best way to do this is with dakka fexes (especially if he is flying). It is always important to take him out first even if you divert most of your shooting towards him it will make a major difference (he is very expensive so taking him out is often a large chunk of daemon army in its-self) Although a thing to remember about fateweaver is that a daemon player might be tempted to have him always swooping as too minimise shots against him; but if he is swooping he ALWAYS has to move a minimum of 12" which will often put his whole "re-roll armour saves doo-hicky" out of rage of friendly units. As for screamers, KEEP YOUR MC's away from them and try to shoot the (please do not swear) out of them before they get to you, thats the only real advise i can give to you about them, they are nasty :/ Super charged gaunts (toxic sacks, adrenal glands ect..) can easily hold up against bloodletters and a lot of the time actual beat them! large gaunt swarms are also the bane of deamon princes and it gets funny quickly seeing the great and almighty daemon princes getting munched by gribbly's! |
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Aug 18, 2012 14:53:35 GMT
If you think that any unit can take out the fateweaver you are greatly mistaken. It has an 88% chance to save (with added consistency, bad rolling is usually forgiven) which is better than terminator armor (84%) while also having T5, 3 wounds, and you can't ignore it's armor with anything. Then apply it has very Tzeentch gift (the good shooting weapons) can fire 3 of them, shoot 3 different targets, and is a FMC itself.
You can have a whole army blow it's long/ medium ranged fire into him and be lucky to score a wound last edition now you need to take snap shots as well if Karios so chooses to move that far.
And, let's remember... Failing a leadership test at leadership 9 isn't all that great in your favor either. Even if Karios does take a wound, he's not running away very soon (but assuming you keep firing at him he will take a wound)
Karios is like the monolith. He's indestructible and you ignore him. If you don't you will give the daemon player 2-3 turns of your shooting for him to get into possition. His whole army can't be within 6" of the fateweaver, and the units that are only get a 5++ reroll able OR 3+ in the case of bloodcrushers who fell out if favor with AP3.
Bloodthirsters vs Swarmlord in CC... My money is on the Bloodthirster. S6 isnt anything to s7-8 (or 9 if charging). The bone sabers do nothing against the Bloodthirster. Ws9 doesn't do much more than WS5 against the Bloodthirster. They both have a 4++. Don't take a cc unit and try to beat a CC unit, it's why shooting exists in reality and why it exists in 40k. Beat a unit at what it is bad at. Tying it down and making it wait and shooting it is likely the best way.
If you don't use gants you probably use tervigons still. I not then why aren't you usin lots of hormagaunts? Volumes of fire can also be found with TMC's with devourers. Biovores work great as well, actually. The rage of their fire, lack of need for LoS, and daemons deep striking (and therefore clumped) with 3 s4 large blasts for cheap? Good vs this particular enemy.
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Post by eldar88 on Aug 18, 2012 16:28:59 GMT
if ur that worried about FW then take Deathleaper, now I know he's not that great or that cheap but if only for the LD modifer.
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Shoot them to death I reckon! Bloodcrushers again another nails Daemon unit, lots and lots of shooting probably, wouldn't want a non-iron armed MC against them. Seekers seem fragile a bit of shooting could take them down I reckon. Nurglings, waste of space. Soul Grinders can easily be wrecked in melee.
(shoot them)
