A question about Adrenal glands among other things

[labinnac]

So I recently played my first game in a long time against my Dad. 1850 point game against his Eldar I won. We were playing with ed5 rules since we haven't read ed 6. Adrenal glands (AG) and Toxin sacks (TS) were quite a useful combination. Now with what I have been able to gather from ed 6 rules (haven't quite read them all just glanced at the big stuff, not looking forward to no assault after reserves and overwatch). So now here is my question(s). With furious charges Initiative (I) nerf is it worth it to have AG if I have toxin sacks? I know on some models the answer is yes like on Monstrous creatures or some of the troops. Yet lets say Genestealers (I had 20 with scything talons,rending claws,TS,and AG at 420 points for the brood! That's almost 25% of the army) Does that extra 1 strength (s) help with the re rolls on the TS often or no not really? I am thinking of removing the Ag's on the hormigaunts (10 int he brood) so I can make the brood 15 or even 20 strong. Also I am considering dropping the genestealer brood to 15 not 20 that will save my about 105 points if I keep the AG. Well can't wait for my next game my flyrant will be even more beastly then he was before, and he ate face before. I love the DoM and Hive guards and the tervigons are the perfect objective point babysitter just sit and spawn and that point will become an impregnable fortress.

[infornography]

If you face much Toughness 4, then AG is totally worth it on gaunts and gants and tervigons. Otherwise I don't think they are worth the points they cost. Definitely not on genestealers.

Thing is with genestealers you want to reroll more dice to get more rends. The AG mean you will reroll fewer dice on the assault. Plus the benefits are pretty minor.

[labinnac]

Well I think I would re roll more often on the assault because isn't the rule if the strength is the same or higher you re roll right? Or is it if the S is just the same? So on gaunts yes on genestealers no I figured that cause T5 creatures are rare. T3-4 is common and T6-7 for big baddies so t5 would be fairly uncommon

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 15, 2012 2:04:26 GMT labinnac said:

Well I think I would re roll more often on the assault because isn't the rule if the strength is the same or higher you re roll right? Or is it if the S is just the same? So on gaunts yes on genestealers no I figured that cause T5 creatures are rare. T3-4 is common and T6-7 for big baddies so t5 would be fairly uncommon

He is saying if you reroll less dice you will get less rending wounds, even though you will get more wounds. And genestealers are only good because they have rending. You want a 4+ with rerolls more than you want a 3+ with rerolls in this specific situation (odd right?)

[labinnac]

Yeah I understand genestealers rending is what makes them beast. So AG on a stealer with TS is kind of redundant and not very beneficial I'm guessing. On gaunts it's a complete waste unless I'm seeing a lot of t4 but still not rending on them so it's really just rerolls. I want to try and fill things out to become a 2k army I still have 150 left. Also another question with the DoM having such a high LD is it okay to just drop him behind enemy lines and watch him wreak havoc on as many units as possible or wait to get him into range? I know with the new rage rules things about synapse are different.

[Deleted]

AG is popular on Gaunts because s4 means they can glance vehicles, a brood of AG Hormagaunts can rip apart transports pretty well. It's not as popular on Genes as TS is as it doesn't increase their killing power as much and they can already glance vehicles. Depends how pricey you're ok with your genes being really.

Dropping DoM behimd enemy lines is the standard tactic with him, I don't think any opponent with half a brain would let him survive walking across the board.

As for the 2k mark, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The doubled FOC means the high possibility of running into really nasty cheese lists that you'd be hard pressed to fight without lots of spam yourself. That's why many places are running "1999+1" or less. Unless 2k is the standard at your LGS I wouldn't worry about hitting 2k, just keep trying to fill in your choices of units so you can mix up your list.

[labinnac]

Well I have no idea what their average is I haven't been there yet. For years there wasn't even a gaming store till about 2 years ago, and they just recently (like 4 months ago) started having 40k games so haven't been there yet. I just know that 2k points is what I would call "standard". With 2000 points I can take away and add as needed from a 1k game to a 3k game. Yeah I had that idea that the DoM was dropped behind enemy lines I was just worried if I can't get the LD test passed I won't get to use that whopping 10s lrg blast cataclysm that could destroy a whole unit or badly cripple a weak transport. Okay thats what I was thinking no AG on genes I am thinking of reducing the stealers I have to about 15 instead of 20 to increase my ranks of other things (like making my ymgarl brood go from 6 to maybe 10)

[wisdomseyes1]

@60mm: genestealers *cant* glance most vehicles (walkers excluded). Rending means you have to be av 11 rear, and that doesn't happen often.

[carnogaunt]

Aug 15, 2012 3:06:58 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

@60mm: genestealers *cant* glance most vehicles (walkers excluded). Rending means you have to be av 11 rear, and that doesn't happen often.

Penetrating hits still remove hull points. Or were you just pointing out the technicality?

[labinnac]

Either way I won't be assaulting tanks with genestealers very often that's what my hive guards and zoanthropes are for

[killme304]

On the little guys like hormies and gargs, packing TS + AG is almost a must IMO. While it doesn't boost I anymore, the poison rules got a buff, so if you are S4 on the charge vs GEQ AG are no longer a waste. It would give you a 3+ with reroll, which is fairly devastating against armies with so low saves. Vs MEQ it gives you 4+ with reroll to still manage more wounds overall (and more chances to fail saves).

[nalathani]

I think it depends on your list. If you're using small squads (say less than 20) of terms, gargs, or horms, then it may be useful. It's not a huge investment, and allows them to be effective even in small numbers.

However, if you are using squads of 30, or multiple squads of 30 (horde army) it's going to get expensive fast. Gargoyals at least move fast enough to get into CC quickly, but on broods of 30 horms or terms I'd say try to work the Swarmlord into your army. He can dish out FC on the turn you need to assault a vehicle or tough unit, and then switch over to PE on subsequent turns when FC is worthless. However, PE doesn't work well on horms as they already re-roll their 1's to hit...

I'm of the opinion that our gaunts/gants are tarpits, nothing more. Hormagaunts are faster troop tarpits, gargoyles are our fastest tarpit. I wouldn't sink too many points into making them killy. And, as others have said, genestealers don't benefit much from furious charge, but they do benefit a lot from toxin sacs.

Use your points wisely! Hold things in place with your gants/gaunts and then slam into them with genestealers or trygons.

[labinnac]

Yeah I don't think I used my genestealers veyr wisely on my last game. First I didn't outflank them (which with the new rules i probably won't do anymore anyways) I just infiltrated them close to the eldas more ranged side to try and knock out the scary shooty stuff. Well he intercepted me with his harliquins I used my group of warriors and hive guards to reduce the number of the quins to about half. So I had to assault the quins with the stealers mind you they had already soaked up fire the last turn so I lost 5 already with furious charge I was 1 I above the quins (thank gawd) and was able and so killed the quins in the first round of CC and tried to use my consolidate to get into cover which i kind of did but they soaked up another 2 turns of fire on them (dangerous terrain) and began my assault of the big guned badies and when I had killed about 2 squads I had about 3 stealers left over and they actually survived to the end of the game I still lost about 10 by turn 2 which in my opinion was to much. I like the idea of using gants as a nice tarpit esspecially with AG and then using the stealers to come in and finish everything off esspecially if the gants win the assault I can catch the losers while they are trying to retreat and cut them down like pigs, or just leave them no escape at all. so AG on gnats but not on stealers unless I can afford the points cost. Should I drop scything talons off of the stealers? Or are those re rolls on 1's useful?

[Davor]

To labinnac (is that a capital I or a small L?) please please please stop writing in walls of text. Please use paragraphs, it is so hrd to read.

[killme304]

Aug 15, 2012 21:43:41 GMT labinnac said:

Should I drop scything talons off of the stealers? Or are those re rolls on 1's useful?

Most people will tell you that Scytals are worse than poison, and they would be right from a math and gameplay standpoint. That said, if you want them in addition to toxin sacs, Its a personal choice, but then your guys start to get expensive. I'm busy right now or I'd give you the math. I will say that Genestealers hit most enemies on a 3+, so you would literally be re-rolling half your misses. It will increase your number of wounds, but since Genestealers are already super killy, glass cannon style, you have to consider if the brood is getting too expensive for how easily they die.

tl;dr:
Poison first, then scytals for upgrades on stealers.

P.S.
Broodlord might as well take scytals, its 2 points on one model, so it wont hemorrhage your points away. That, and he can't take poison.