Going back to tournament play soon.

[wisdomseyes1]

Hq 
Tyranid prime
- LW/BS
- Rending Claws
- Regeneration 
- Toxin Sacs 
= 115

Tervigon
- 2 powers
- toxin sacs
- Crushing Claws
= 225

Elite
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
= 450

Troops 
20 termagant
= 100

Tervigon
- Catalyst
- Onslaught 
- Toxin Sacs
= 200

Fast Attack
20 Gargoyles 
- Toxin Sacs
- Adrenal Glands 
= 160

Heavy 
Trygon
Tryon
Trygon
= 600

== 1750

I will FIRST address what I know is going to be a top comment. "Why don't you make the 20 man termagant squad 2 minimum squads of 10 and make the Tervigon a Troop?"

It's somewhat because the Tervigon would then become my warlord, and with either iron arm or endurance, it becomes very hard to kill and therefore denies a victory point to the opponent. Though, similar can be said about the tyranid prime in a large brood of gants. Thing is, I can't have a large brood of gants AND a Tervigon at the same time. Because the Tervigon spawns scoring units, it's not actually a huge loss to make it an HQ

Onto my other reasoning, a large brood of termagants make for a huge wound pool for the tyranid prime. It's 1 unit, so catalyst effects the entire unit all at once, rather than half of the unit. So, attach a prime and catalyst up, you have 20 cheap extra emergency wounds, (you can take most wounds against your armor and feel no pain, then regen some of them away... The gants are for when that gets risky or when there are just to many shots to deal with and risk it). At 2 units it wouldn't make as great an impact on the game. Also, it doesn't come up as much anymore, but it does still come up, 1 tough killpoint vs 2 easy.

Okay, next up we have the actual Tervigon builds. My HQ Tervigon is a Tervifex as many call it, and the reason for that is because it wants those biomancy buffs to keep itself alive. those buffs ultimately lead to a model that wants to charge across the table and smash things. 
However, my Troops Tervigon isn't so mindless as to just charge enemy lines. Not to say my Tervifex is... This particular Tervigon just serves a different role. She will be sitting in middle bak field holding an objective (hopefully) spawning when needed, and using catalyst to augment my huge gants unit OR herself OR a Trygon that may need it. It also, as you may have noticed, has onslaught. Last edition I called it worthless. With pre measuring this edition, I am more able to call the chances and take the risks of my psychic power to more clearly define if the extra inches are needed. 3-4 inches off (or less) and I would likely decide I need it. The game has shifted pretty far away from assault without units that are just truly dedicated assault monstrosities, so long range combat is getting more prominent. And 2 out of the 3 deployments start us pretty far from the opponent. It might come in handy more often than 3 gants would. 

No matter how many vehicles are on the table... Or if fliers are being used or not, hive guard are there and they are a great threat. Because 6 s8 shots that don't need to see the enemy and ignore most cover are lethal regardless of the opponent. 

You might think "tervifexen are better than trygons, why not just run more tervifexen". The reason is because tervigons can can't beat most dedicated close combat units. Another good reason is, a Tervifex is minimum 215 (maybe more) points, and require at least another 50 points to fit the FOC. For something that is scoring and "lowers its cost by giving you free gants". I prefer the less points, more damage, fewer perks that aren't likely to come up anyway. I don't NEED more scoring. I have a minimum of 4 scoring units right now, plus more if I get big Guns (not a tactical reason, but it is a reason) and more for the number that Tervigons are capable of making (depending on the risk of my tervigons and the number of objectives actually on the table) trygons can kill volumes of models more effectively than tervigons (there is a roll to hit, even if the Tervigon has cc and warp speed and gets 8 attacks, the Trygon is better at wounding because it has more hits)

Finally, gargoyles. With the new rules for cover (area terrain and some very poorly thought out debate on intervening models focusing on a bold section in the rules and ignoring the sentence after it on purpose) gargoyles have lost a lot of their initial appeal because cover is easy to come by now. Then the change with furious charge and combat speed, the debate between hormagaunts actually holds a chance now. The consistent speed and model of the gargoyles, along with a real ability to give cover on the good chance it gets FAQ'd or people come to their senses (unlike some people suggesting ripper swarms being able to give trygons cover) make them appealing to me. It's a fast attack for scouring (again, just something) combat abilities, glancing vehicles, ext. they are just flexible.

I might start getting into tournaments again within the next few months. I know the game has evolved a bit, I know toaster zombies have a an edge in tournament play. If you know the current tournament play for certain things (toasters, puppies, Angels, dark space pirates (DE), knights) that would be great.

Are Knights still using purifiers and psyfillmen? Are dark eldar still using true born raider spam and occasionally wytch cults? Puppies still have longfangs? What's up with new toasters, I haven't had a chance to play with them, my chaos friend played a game with them an told me horror stories. Ext. I know the game will shift a bit with the rulebook FAQ coming out, but the list can and will adjust. It's not perfect. That's why I'm putting it up. 

[wisdomseyes1]

Just a added note. I played this list vs necrons today, but I don't know if it was a competitive list or not.

The list was
Star dude that turns into a c'tan
Star dude that gives random buffs (got increased BS on immortals?)

X3 flier transports, 2 units of 15 warriors 1 unit of 15 immortals? (17 points they have s7 ap4 rapid fire guns... What the...)
9 warriors on foot.
X3 heavy support fliers with death rays.

Killpoints and annoying diagnal deployment. He hid his HQ's in the back where it was physically impossible to touch them for 3 turns (for tyranids) and at that time all his fliers would come in with his master of time giving him reroll failed reserves.

I got first turn. Gone to ground necron warriors didn't die to any of my shooting. They snapfire and do nothing themselves. Very uneventful first turn. Then, came my assaulting the necrons with my Trygon (he put them up in front... Why I am not sure... Tactical brainfart? Maybe. But there was very little terrain on his side of the table) then... Every single flier came in. They all blasted through a unit of hive guard and a Trygon. First blood was to me, but he already caught up and had tons of firepower on the table.

It was my turn again, top of 2, shot every hive guard I had left into the transport flier... Got 2 hits... Rolled a 1 and a 2. My trygons also fired their weapon (odd right?) and my tervigons fired their weapons (stinger salvo obviously) ad got 1 glancing result on one of the heavy ones.

The game lasted 3 hours, went to turn 6, and I am not very good at battle reports. Regardless, I won the game in the end by killing the guys that eventually hopped out and got assaulted. I aime my gargoyles at the 2 HQ's and the stars aligned the turn before I assaulted him sonit took a bit longer than I would have liked.

4 points to him for my hive guard and a Trygon, plus one for line breaker. 3 points for me from his fleshy units, 2 for the HQ's, one for warlord, one for first blood, and one for line breaker.

I think really what saved me is the limited mobility of supersonic fliers and him at one point having to fly them off the edge, because there wasn't anywhere else to go, and the guns not always being able to hit because of the vehicles facing,

I can guess that is not what a tournament list looks like and/or it was played improporly. What do necrons really do now? I am sure scarabs are popular... Right? Are mind shackles actually popular in all commers lists?

Responses appreciated.

[creep]

I will comment on your stuff tomorrow, it will be constructive dont worry.
Glad to see someone listing so many reasons, it definetely helps.

Hm lets say something on HQ. Lashwhip is nice but do you need it? Prime isnt really scared of anything exept stuff that has I 1. You have 2+ lookout sir now outside a challenge. Inside a Challenge you want to see your challenger dead if its a MC with S 10, a Warboss or a Necron Lord or anything else you can ID. Rending claws are there against bots and Landraiders? You can do fine with Scytals. 9 Hiveguard and you MCs should be able to handle it.

Tervifex is nice. Your reasons to have him as HQ make perfect sense. But you need troops really. You can hide a Prime in Hiveguard now gives the HG a 3+ save and the prime gets virtual T6 and has his 2+ lookout sir to spread the first 3 wounds if you are worried about hiding your Prime. Think about it again the warlord traits are not that hardcore for a terv and he is a easier target as the Prime due to his UCM status.
If it is about keeping your warlord save i beg you consider to take the Prime and grab the free troop slot.

You could drop one unit of HG for another 100 points Prime and attach each of them to a HG brood. This also frees up 50 points for the 20 man Gant brood to stick the primes in as soon as they want to get in melee, get in danger or just to have the option.

Taking the 5 points from downgrade to bouble Boneswords and 10 from reg in addition to onslaught from the small troop terv you can get some toxin for all your Trygons. Makes them at least about 12%-25% (2+ to wound - 4+ to wound reroll) more deadly against anything with toughness (rerollable 2+ i guess you already know that it has changed for melee poision in 6th ed).

If something out of this seems like you can work with it I will continue.

[wisdomseyes1]

The reason I prefer lash whips, even now, is because last edition I had to deal with lash daemon princes and fast IC's (the ones without powerfists or hammers, basically). Now, it could also help a bit with challanges. I will consider dropping lash whips on the chance I need 5 points, but if I don't need the 5 points then dropping them wouldnt be the greatest idea.

The list I am using is actually something I used in 5th with some acceptions (17 vanilla gargoyles, adrenal glands on trygons, not as much stuff on tervigons and the prime didn't have toxin or regen)

I wont be dropping regen on the prime short of biblical intervention. It is cheap and very effective. Toxin sacs I'll be willing to consider though, they are useful but not needed. And as for the rending claws... A unit like the tyranid prime getting as close as it does, being fearless, it doesn't like dreads. Hey, I found that 5 points for the lash, death spitter if I attach to a guard unit, helps get a few additional glances on AV11 (seldom happens, but can help... Assuming i stop fearing dreads.

Trygons TS isn't worth it. It's 10 points to make them more Killy on things it is already Killy against. I am fine with charging and killing 5 guys rather than 6. Not for 30 points over my entire army.

How tactically sound dropping some hie guard is I am not sure. I mean, I guess by sheer bad luck I never touched fliers with them... But I should have. With their volumes of shots I should be getting 1 hit and then have a 66% chance of doing some damage (against fliers) everything else is basically screwed.

I will consider dropping the termagants to 2 units and moving the Tervigon. I'll have to play test a few more times, but my gant unit was really just ignored all game. I guess not being an Obj game, killing them didn't matter. By pulling them apart I'll double my initial scoring, but I'll lose my prime meat shield. And... I just realized im using onslaught so my argument my prime wants to run so putting him with hive guard has become completely invalidated... So yea I might do that.

[fragile]

Im not a big fan of the Prime in that list, as its ability to attach to a unit for wound allocation is limited. It is not enough of a beatstick that needs its own shield.

Play it a few times before decide, its a simple, in your face style beatdown list so you should get the feel of whether you like playing it or not.

Personally, If it were me, I would swap out a Trygon for a Flyrant and move the Terv down into Troops with the splitting the Terms..

[wisdomseyes1]

Flyrants are so fragile... Far to fragile for my taste. I know I am not willing to spend 260 points on 4 wounds with basically no save (takes a grounded test and fliers have skyfire. It might be good at trying to hit them, but it's equally weak against them. Tyranid primes last edition, to me, were strictly better than hive tyrants. Their combat skills are fairly close to the tyrant, they are more survivable, and they provide their own sort of support. The tyrant isn't really... "flexible". You build it one way and it's that way, period. I would have to give up a lot of wounds an treat potential for 1 tyrant, (3 wounds from the prime and any wound allocation there, 6 wounds from the Trygon) to get a fast model who would effectively rely on cover turn 1 if I go second, and on the lack of skyfire from my opponents if I do go first... And then still will likely take a woud from bolsters just because my speed makes it go all "oh no!"

Too much to lose for a Flyrant. Not too much gain (12 s6 shots... Woo, I'd sooner make all my trygons primes for less points and get similar flier killing results)

Again, I'm considering dropping the Tervigon into Troops, but the loss of the 1 blob makes me worried, considering I have 2 tervigons. I don't have much leway into what I give feel no pain. I make them 2 units and my opponent can just shoot the one that is feeling pain. And, the scoring potential is a bit... Small. It is always scoring because it makes scoring (so, a minimum of 4 scoring units, dropping it down I just said minimum 6 scoring units.. Name 1 army that takes 6 scoring units... Other than us because we spam tervigons)

[fragile]

It all comes down to how you play him. Running a LW/BS, Flyrant with 1 TL Dev, guarantees its in combat round2. Grounding tests are pretty much like any other save we make. Just dont put him in the middle of everything the enemy has.

[wisdomseyes1]

Not entirely the same as any other save we make. This particular situaltion requires one 6 from bolters and then I have to take a 3+ save (as opposed to 3's and THEN 6's, cutting down on the number of wounds)

The only thing that makes the Flyrant not totally worthless is she can't take 4 grounded Tests a turn and when she is grounded she still moved fast for "hard to hit"

[Aux]

6th Tournament list looks oddly like the early list I played in 5th. Like, a copy/paste of the godlist back from when the codex came out.

I did fairly "meh" with it at a handful of GTs. It's an absurdly dull list to play. With the 6th rules change, it might work out quite a bit better!

[wisdomseyes1]

Godlist? 0.o

Haha, sounds like a funny thing to call a tyranid list

Give me a minute and I'll edit in the list I used in 5th.


HQ
Tyranid Prime 
Lw/bs
Rending claws 
TS 

Tyranid Prime 
Lw/bs
Rending claws 

= 200

Troops 
Tervigon TS/ catalyst
Tervigon TS/ catalyst
15 devils
15 devils
= 470

9 hive guard
= 450

3 Trygon AG
= 630

With the decrease in killpoints missions, I stopped using devils as avidly. I was willing to drop them down. AG is pretty useless now, so I took that off the trygons. I invested the extra points into the tervigons... I had leftover points and I could have used it to get either more gants (which with 2 tervigons didn't appeal to me) or gargoyles. But, I didn't have enough extra points. I decided one of my tervigons would not be a Tervifex as I initially planned, to save 25 points there, and I dropped one of my primes, combine my gant units then cut 50 points there. Added gargoyles for portable cover, and then gave them combat abilities. It was a decision between 20 gants or 2 units of 10. Because I only use tervigons for last second scoring, so the bulky unit (and only 1 unit with psychic powers that are going to be supporting me) I decided I would just make a unit that consists of 20 rather than 2x10. Now I question that logic because killpoints isn't that big a deal... But I can't support both units.

[Aux]

I used to 2x18 TS/AG Gargs and had basic termagants in a 1x30 and a Terv as Troop. HQ Terv. Had a Prime in the mob of 30 gaunts

[wisdomseyes1]

HQ
Tyranid Prime
Dual BS 
Rending claws
Regen

= 100

Elite
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard

= 300

Troops 
Tervigon
Crushing claws 
Onslaught
Catalyst

Tervigon
Crushing claws 
Onslaught
Catalyst

= 430

16 termagants 
16 termagants 

= 160

Heavy

3 Trygon 
= 600

Fast 
20 gargoyles 
Adrenal glands 
Toxin sacs

= 160


This is with some edits from suggestions. Probably don't need the lash whips in this meta, bones words being the most powerful "power weapon" right now, the close combat monsters aren't going to be bothering me.

Someone (fragile I think, lots of text to go through) suggested I cut down on the hive guard. I was skeptical... But after some re evaluating the list... I realized I somehow got an extra 100 points in there by accident. So, i WAS going to have 3 units of hive guard, and crushing claws on both tervigons... But I didn't have the points left. I can add the 3rd unit back by dropping the gargoyles down and taking away the crushing claws. I am strongly considering it. What is everyones thoughts? (this time I triple checked the math... Because that is just embarrassing :/) 

@ NIB: you play against necrons all the time. Y U No post on my thread

[Deleted]

Whats up with RC on top of BS? It it for the chance of extra pen vs armor?

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 15, 2012 1:52:59 GMT @60mm said:

Whats up with RC on top of BS? It it for the chance of extra pen vs armor?

The tyranid prime intends to get up close. More than once I have gotten stuck in close combat with a dread who was shooting backfield because I could have contested an objective or the firepower on the dread itself was useless at that point in the game. Because "fearless" still means "stupid" my tyranid prime would get stuck without a chance. That wouldn't be fun.

The AP2 is also helpful on those off situations. I feel it comes in handy more often than scything talons do. I did, however, consider a death spitter in its place... But I need some convincing on that point.

[N.I.B.]

I don't really give much list advice at all nowadays, and don't post suggestions at point levels I don't play myself. Tournaments especially, usually have very specific win conditions and deployments, that differ from the army book missions. This can throw off normally sound army list configurations, so unless those conditions are included in the threads I don't usually bother.

But since you asked, my two cent.
It looks solid enough, but I would upgrade the Tervifexes with AG, TS. Just too good pay-off for the investment, now that S4 in combat can easily wreck most vehicles in the game, plus the changes to how poison works really benefit the Tervigon too. You'll want to wound MEQs on 2's (with rerolls) on the charge without cutting your attacks in half.
I'd cut one Gant unit to 10 and the other one to 14 to find the points.
Trygons and Gargoyles work excellent as the first wave that need to be taken down, while the second wave with Tervigons/Hive Guards advances and take control for the win. Simple but effective mechanics. Forward synapse can be a problem for Gargoyles though, if they lose combat.
Personally I stopped deploying Trygons after facing at least 4 Mindshackle in every game. That (please do not swear) gets old fast.