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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 7:34:55 GMT
They definitely aren't "blindingly fast". The math was done and Hormagaunts gain an average of an inch or two, nothing substantial. Gargoyles are far faster and Termagants can cause casualties before they hit, Hormagants just got nerfed. The whole rage thing is being overblown too. Wait and see what happens when your ld6 Hormagants take fire before getting into assault range. And yet despite math-hammer which pretty much doesn't apply to the real life game, you're very likely to roll a 5 or 6 with Hormagaunts when running thanks to bounding leap and fleet. Coredump, you're right, 3" is a lot often. An extra 6", guaranteed, is even better. So is HoW. Termagants and Gargoyles cause minimal casualties before hitting, they're basically Space Marine Scouts with bolt pistols, not impressive. And when I spoke about Feed, I wasn't bigging up the extra attack thing, but rather the amount of control you have over the unit. Lurk may force movement in a direction you don't want, Feed won't, which is good for a combat unit. Of course, you want them in synapse, but when all's not going too well Feed is better than Lurk. Math hammer very much applies to the game unless you have some magical dice of probability-ignoring. If math hammer didn't matter stats wouldn't even matter because anything is technically possible with dice rolls. Anyhow, with HoW Gargoyles hit with just as many attacks as Hormagaunts do on the first assault phase, with the HoW hits being at i10 which can be nice considering AG no longer boosts initiative. And the much larger threat range, and Blinding Venom, and Fleshborers and cheaper TS/AG. I love Hormagaunts, they look awesome and epitomize Tyranids to me. But what made them special, speed and attacks, are gone. They are minimally faster than any regular infantry, and HoW gives Gargoyles a better first turn punch. No reroll is going to make them near as fast/mobile as Gargoyles, plus Gargoyles have guns. As for IB, having Hormagaunts out of Synapse is an aweful idea. Forcing a morale check on them is incredibly easy, failing is easy at ld6 and they won't do squat running away. If you are running your gaunts out of synapse you already have some problems. |
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Post by brucelich on Aug 13, 2012 14:31:00 GMT
Well, to be fair, HoW only applies to models that reach base contact so you're still more likely to get more attacks from hormies than from goyles on the first round. Also, the threat range is exactly the same if your goyles get HoW. IIRC, you can only use your "jump" bonus once per turn.. either during movement phase (12") or during assault (reroll dice + How). Another thing hormies have over goyles is scoring.
On the other hand, goyles have a gun. While not the most powerful, any extra wound can help... Unless it prevents us from reaching the enemy in assault.. but thats another story. The gun also gives you access to overwatch... which is also a nice bonus.. although, i wasn't very lucky with overwatch since 6th came out
Don't get me wrong, i love Goyles!!! I rarely play a game without at least one brood of them. They are a very good bargain unit. I loved them in 5th and absolutely adore them in 6th. That being said, I also rarely play a game without hormies. I have had very good results with them as well.
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Post by eeknight on Aug 13, 2012 19:25:47 GMT
They still have their uses. While I've switched to gargoyles for cheap deep-strikers, I'm still sending in hormagaunts as second-wave chargers behind Raveners or a Trygon. I used to use them in big batches in the first wave to absorb fire and tie down the enemy, now they're smaller teams that pitch in to keep my key players from being swarmed if I can't afford genestealers.
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Post by kryteian on Aug 13, 2012 20:27:44 GMT
I love hormies, I've played them since 2nd, I still have my old metal hormies that I've used up until last year but they have been beaten to death with the nerf bat. In theory hormies are awesome, in theory communism works, in theory Homer Simpson is a smart guy but in practice they just don’t cut it.
First they need a dedicated synapse babysitter but most things are too slow to keep up, so that limits the only thing going for them which is their speed, warriors are too slow or they are running instead of shooting , maybe a prime or the parasite but they don’t get bounding leap, a flyrant would be wasting his moves when he should be zooming around kicking butt, maybe Swarmy because of his 18’ synapse but still that’s expensive.
This is what happens when you field hormies, you move and run, with fleet and bounding leap you run 5-6 inches. You’re now 6 more inches away from your synapse bubble, next turn you move and either run or charge. If you run you again run you run 5-6 inches and are now out of synapse and then on your opponents turn your hormies get shot to heck, fail your Ld 6 morale check and fall back 2D6 inches, sure you fall back into synapse but you just lost almost 12 inches of movement by the time you can get back into assault range you’ve eaten at least one more round of shooting and are now down to just a few hormies that will bounce off MEQ troops. If you get off a 2nd turn charge this is what happens, if you’re lucky your still in synapse you declare a charge and with fleet you can easily declare a 7+ inch charge because you have a good chance of it going off, you then eat a round of overwatch shots, since hormies save stinks you lose 1-2 hormies and if you are really lucky you’re still in charge range, but of course when you get into base to base your out of synapse, you go first wound and hopefully kill 1 or 2 MEQ troops they attack and since hormies saves stink (see the pattern) you lose a hormie every time they roll a wound and then loose the combat by 2 or 3, you then fail your Ld test because hormies Ld stinks and your out of synapse, luckily they are fast enough to most of the time escape a sweeping advance and your flee right back into your synapse, cool right! Nope on your opponents next turn your hormies eat a cubic gob of rapid fire shots and die. This is if you were lucky and made the charge if not your hormies sit there with their claws up their noses, get shot with bolt pistols charged and wiped out because they can’t overwatch and termies within 6 inches of a tervigon have the same number of attacks when receiving a charge (and poison) at almost half the cost.
I love hormies and wished they worked but they don’t. If they were 4 points plus 1 point for upgrades they would be worth it but they are pretty much double that and that makes them just too expensive points wise. If they FAQed bounding leap to work on independent characters that join hormies that might help too (especially if they could outflank with hive commander) but right now like a lot of our stuff it just doesn’t work.
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Post by DarkGuard on Aug 13, 2012 22:38:10 GMT
60mm, maybe I should have made my point more clear, I don't like Math hammer and don't let it rule my decisions. You will hardly ever get the average or perfect Math hammer results. It's a guide, and a guide only, but not an ironclad guide.
In regards to HoW though, I refuse to count that as a massive plus against Hormgaunts. As has been said, it's only those models in base contact when combat starts, which due to the size of the Gargoyle base and the size of the models, will likely only be a fraction of the unit most of the time. Then it's an AP- attack at their base strength, no modifiers, which is therefore S3. I can't see many Marine units being scared of that. Imperial Guard and the like may be scared, but most armies are GEQ.
kryteian, as much as I don't like telling people how to use their units, I think you basically screwed up using Hormagaunts there, rather than them not working. What you've done there sounds like a basic mistake, you over extended. Sometimes it's better to pass up that earlier charge just so you can stay within synapse range. If you're not going to take Swarmlord or similar for a larger synapse range then work around it. Have something that runs along behind them all the time, trail some models behind to make sure they stay in. Stuff like that. It's not that hard to keep them in synapse range of a 12" synapse creature if you do it properly, and I've played with them a lot in 5th Ed. Remember, everything has to work together, and that might mean sacrificing a Turn 2 charge to have a more successful Turn 3 charge.
A lot of stuff works in our Codex, if you think it doesn't work, it's probably because you made a mistake with that unit, or were expecting them to be something they aren't.
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Post by jonagorn on Aug 13, 2012 23:31:11 GMT
I love hormies, I've played them since 2nd, I still have my old metal hormies that I've used up until last year but they have been beaten to death with the nerf bat. In theory hormies are awesome, in theory communism works, in theory Homer Simpson is a smart guy but in practice they just don’t cut it. First they need a dedicated synapse babysitter but most things are too slow to keep up, so that limits the only thing going for them which is their speed, warriors are too slow or they are running instead of shooting , maybe a prime or the parasite but they don’t get bounding leap, a flyrant would be wasting his moves when he should be zooming around kicking butt, maybe Swarmy because of his 18’ synapse but still that’s expensive. This is what happens when you field hormies, you move and run, with fleet and bounding leap you run 5-6 inches. You’re now 6 more inches away from your synapse bubble, next turn you move and either run or charge. If you run you again run you run 5-6 inches and are now out of synapse and then on your opponents turn your hormies get shot to heck, fail your Ld 6 morale check and fall back 2D6 inches, sure you fall back into synapse but you just lost almost 12 inches of movement by the time you can get back into assault range you’ve eaten at least one more round of shooting and are now down to just a few hormies that will bounce off MEQ troops. If you get off a 2nd turn charge this is what happens, if you’re lucky your still in synapse you declare a charge and with fleet you can easily declare a 7+ inch charge because you have a good chance of it going off, you then eat a round of overwatch shots, since hormies save stinks you lose 1-2 hormies and if you are really lucky you’re still in charge range, but of course when you get into base to base your out of synapse, you go first wound and hopefully kill 1 or 2 MEQ troops they attack and since hormies saves stink (see the pattern) you lose a hormie every time they roll a wound and then loose the combat by 2 or 3, you then fail your Ld test because hormies Ld stinks and your out of synapse, luckily they are fast enough to most of the time escape a sweeping advance and your flee right back into your synapse, cool right! Nope on your opponents next turn your hormies eat a cubic gob of rapid fire shots and die. This is if you were lucky and made the charge if not your hormies sit there with their claws up their noses, get shot with bolt pistols charged and wiped out because they can’t overwatch and termies within 6 inches of a tervigon have the same number of attacks when receiving a charge (and poison) at almost half the cost. I love hormies and wished they worked but they don’t. If they were 4 points plus 1 point for upgrades they would be worth it but they are pretty much double that and that makes them just too expensive points wise. If they FAQed bounding leap to work on independent characters that join hormies that might help too (especially if they could outflank with hive commander) but right now like a lot of our stuff it just doesn’t work. You're view of Hormagaunts.... surely Hormagaunts being out of synapse isn't really the worst thing that could happen to them? If for example they were a turn away from charging and they aren't in range of synapse, the enemy probably wouldn't worry too much about them. If they do happen to fail their Leadership test, then it's only an advantage so they are more likely to do more damage to the unit they're charging and the unit would do to them. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 14, 2012 6:44:28 GMT
surely Hormagaunts being out of synapse isn't really the worst thing that could happen to them? If for example they were a turn away from charging and they aren't in range of synapse, the enemy probably wouldn't worry too much about them. Counting on your enemy to make mistakes like not shooting a Ld6 unit to scare it off the table is not sound tactics. The extra attack on the charge is negligible from a tactical point of view - you can't really form a battleplan around it. It's still a bad move to leave a unit of Hormagaunts outside synapse. Spawned Termagants are faster. The only thing Hormagaunts got going is their fluffy coolness. |
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Post by coredump on Aug 14, 2012 8:08:00 GMT
Except spawned gaunts can't go very fast, and still benefit from the TS/AG of the tervigon.
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 14, 2012 11:39:50 GMT
In 6th ed all you need is Fearless to start with. Once in combat, the enemy is on the clock. Plus forward synapse is available in multiple ways.
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Post by gauntlet on Aug 14, 2012 12:42:55 GMT
Turn one, could you use Hormagaunts to bubble wrap your Tervigon ( as I tend not to bring on Gaunts first turn, preferring to spawn or deepstrike them.) Then as your Hormagaunts move forwards with Dominion support they will be in synapse during the opponents turn. Then during our turn you can turn off Dominion and let the Hormagaunts charge with rage.
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Post by Lanesend on Aug 14, 2012 12:52:45 GMT
But then you would have Ld6 during your assault phase, which is dangerous, unless you are very sure you're going to win combat.
Hormagaunts killing 4 marines in combat is quite good, even if 5 hormies or more die in return. But you have just lost combat, so..... they'll be running back towards your own table edge.
If those same hormies kill 3 marines in combat, losing 5 in return, it is still good. And because of synapse they stay in the fight for one more round.
I know what I prefer.
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Post by kryteian on Aug 14, 2012 21:05:48 GMT
can we make Hormagaunts work, sure we can, is it worth it points wise to do so, not really.
6th edition is still really new so we are all still learning what works and what doesn't, in my half dozen games hormies haven't worked yet. bubble wrapping them around a synapse creature takes away their speed which is the one thing they have over termies (and why they cost more).
maybe I'll find a way to make them work but right now there are way more units to try and see what works.
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Post by Mindshred on Aug 15, 2012 7:37:32 GMT
Just because you're out of synapse at the start of your turn doesn't mean that you have to remain out of synapse for the entire duration. Just move a synapse unit up into range, and now you've got raging, fearless Hormagaunts.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2012 7:51:43 GMT
The problem is the only way they can start your turn out of synapse is if they were out of synapse during the enemy turn as well, which is when they will take fire and fallback if a morale test is required. Sure, they can fallback into synapse but you just lost extremely valuable distance and will have to weather more fire.
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Post by Mindshred on Aug 17, 2012 4:42:34 GMT
The problem is the only way they can start your turn out of synapse is if they were out of synapse during the enemy turn as well, which is when they will take fire and fallback if a morale test is required. Sure, they can fallback into synapse but you just lost extremely valuable distance and will have to weather more fire. Not necessarily. If you win a combat during the opponent's turn, you can use your consolidation move to bring them out of synapse range, or consolidate a synapse creature away from them. It's nothing to base a strategy around, but it's a nice trick you can take advantage of from time to time. |
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