Great 6e Nid insights

[Deleted]

legiominimus.blogspot.com/2012/07/so-after-reading-through-book-checking.html

[Lanesend]

Thanks 60mm. That was a nice read.
I second most of the points he wrote, but found a few mistakes in the article. Namely the entry about Venomthropes and Ymgarls.

But I see now that that has been covered in the comments already.

[swarmy]

"...So the only real options we have are twin linked Brainleech devourer and units of 3 hive guard as they ignore “jink” saves and can actually blow them up."

Do hive guard really ignore jink? Interesting if true. Would be nice if they actually were decent enough AA all along...somehow I feel like we are going to get scammed out of this like that last really easily rule-lawyer-able hive guard FAQ.

[fragile]

Hive guard ignore cover saves, other than what is mentioned in the special rule.

[wisdomseyes1]

Hive guard don't ignore automatic cover saves. They ignore the BENEFITS OF COVER, not coversaves. The 2 are completely different things.

Coversaves are a type of save.

Cover is something that grants you a coversave (see page 18)

Haven't read the article yet, going to soon though

[wisdomseyes1]

Adrenal sacs on our smaller guys almost a must: that hurt to read for 2 reasons. 

1) because I had to use the context of the post to make sure he meant glands (since it was a hybrid of both biomorphs) 

2) because it just plain isnt true. This article runs under the assumption that the mech being used is transports in this edition.  It's not, it's fliers and high av. I wouldn't start putting the 1-2 point upgrades on my gants and start spending what will end up being 40-80 points on the close combat abilities of a unit of hormagaunts, just so they can glance transports every once and a while. You want to deal with the 2-3 transports that come up once and a while that aren't fliers, just use mc devourers which double as the best Way to deal with zooming fliers.

On the negatives for psychers, not sure why he includes zoanthropes as they can exchange individually, and with tervigons I am always concerned I won't get that endurance roll to keep it as a dual support roll. Even without iron arm or warp speed, the tervigon still in every way is like the hulk.. Smashes this is of course if you choose to give it crushing claws to offset the loss of the attack from the smash attack

On his broodlord psychic powers with shooting, I hope the FAQ says he can take snapshots I don't know nor am I avidly for or against that discussion, I just play it he can't... For now...

Issue with the tarpit thing. Gants CAN NOT tarpit dreadnoughts. He didnt say it, but it does suck we can't (not unless the dreadnought charges our gants, of course) 

Harpy: vector strike says it counts as having shot a gun, so you can't shoot both weapons after a spore mine cyst and vector strike. Funny idea though 

Venomthropes: his initial line about how great it was it covers the entire unit was correct, I liked that statement and agreed with it. Defensive grenades were taken away with the FAQ, though. Not even defensive grenades anymore, it's the old effect of defensive grenades and only when charging the venomthrope
... Is it just me or has the venomthrope been FAQ'd quite a few times, and all of them have been downers.

Changes are bad for tervigons, making them get tarpited pretty easily. As for challenges elsewhere? I can't really see the benefit. I mean, tyranid primes and give tyrants just dominate in challenges. Lash whips make enemies cry. It's just not fun. But... Where does the point come in? I mean I guess if you want to limit damage to your unit it's always a good thing. I don't know, our high number of ignore armor/ap2 attacks make it seem like opponents benefit more than we do.

Y genestealers specifically say they can assault on the turn they arrive. It's normal genestealers that got hit by the new reserve rolls.

He also missed a point 3. If you manage to get most of your army in reserve (or hell, all of it) you risk total annihilation from the opponent shooting down one or 2 models.

[Deleted]

Yeah, as every blurb of good length covering many things there are mistakes but definitely some good things to consider. I hadn't thought of Venomthropes giving cover to entire units negating focus fire.

[swarmy]

Aug 8, 2012 18:01:34 GMT @60mm said:

Yeah, as every blurb of good length covering many things there are mistakes but definitely some good things to consider. I hadn't thought of Venomthropes giving cover to entire units negating focus fire.

I tried out a single venomthrope in my first handful of 6th games. It was pleasantly helpful and not too depressing when he died because an entire unit or vehicle had to waste their fire on him. Hide one completely behind your bigger MC's and count it as a 5++ (I know it's not one but it feels like it when you've always got a steady 5+ cover save vs missiles)

[fleetofclaw]

I think people are overestimating +2 saves on the Tyrant and Tyrannofex. The same things that killed them in 5e are going to kill them in 6e. My Tyrant wasn't worried about S4 power weapons trying to wound him on 6's, it was the powerfists, thunderhammers, lascannons, plasma, railguns, etc that killed him and they still will. I guess rolling your save on those occasional power weapon wounds will be nice, but that wasn't the main threat to our big 2+ save boys.

Also I'm tired of comments like, "due to the massive shift away from Mech." Really? Where? Says who? Yeah the internet is full of people ASSUMING this but when I play I still see rhinos and dreads and land raiders oh my. Rhinos die easily but they've always died easily. They're still a cheap way to throw squads up field. It's way too early to really say where the meta is going to be, so "massive shift" is an insanely premature comment.

[wisdomseyes1]

Aug 8, 2012 18:07:39 GMT swarmy said:

Aug 8, 2012 18:01:34 GMT @60mm said:

Yeah, as every blurb of good length covering many things there are mistakes but definitely some good things to consider. I hadn't thought of Venomthropes giving cover to entire units negating focus fire.

I tried out a single venomthrope in my first handful of 6th games. It was pleasantly helpful and not too depressing when he died because an entire unit or vehicle had to waste their fire on him. Hide one completely behind your bigger MC's and count it as a 5++ (I know it's not one but it feels like it when you've always got a steady 5+ cover save vs missiles)

Well the only things that ignore it are Flamers and s4 weapons, so it's a pretty accurate. Flamers of Tzeentch being the only thing that hurts us in that regard (that I can think of)

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2012 18:15:19 GMT fleetofclaw said:

I think people are overestimating +2 saves on the Tyrant and Tyrannofex. The same things that killed them in 5e are going to kill them in 6e. My Tyrant wasn't worried about S4 power weapons trying to wound him on 6's, it was the powerfists, thunderhammers, lascannons, plasma, railguns, etc that killed him and they still will. I guess rolling your save on those occasional power weapon wounds will be nice, but that wasn't the main threat to our big 2+ save boys.

You haven't considered the fact that Lascannons will probably be less popular now that vehicles got easy to glance to death and foot lists gained power. Plasma will still be around but atleast it's shorter ranged, weaker and gets hot! As for CC, many units don't have ap2 PW options at all anymore. Is 2+ mandatory? No, but on a walking Tyrant I think it's well worth the 40 points now.

[fleetofclaw]

Aug 8, 2012 18:24:05 GMT @60mm said:

Aug 8, 2012 18:15:19 GMT fleetofclaw said:

I think people are overestimating +2 saves on the Tyrant and Tyrannofex. The same things that killed them in 5e are going to kill them in 6e. My Tyrant wasn't worried about S4 power weapons trying to wound him on 6's, it was the powerfists, thunderhammers, lascannons, plasma, railguns, etc that killed him and they still will. I guess rolling your save on those occasional power weapon wounds will be nice, but that wasn't the main threat to our big 2+ save boys.

You haven't considered the fact that Lascannons will probably be less popular now that vehicles got easy to glance to death and foot lists gained power. Plasma will still be around but atleast it's shorter ranged, weaker and gets hot! As for CC, many units don't have ap2 PW options at all anymore. Is 2+ mandatory? No, but on a walking Tyrant I think it's well worth the 40 points now.

Again, PW's weren't what my Tyrant was afraid of. It was pFists, thunderhammers, railguns, lascannons, etc. I'll believe the big "lascannons (or fill in the AP2 weapon blank) will vanish" meta shift when I see it for the very reason that people will still need ways to deal with 2+ saves from range. Especially when people get tired of an armor shelled, iron armed or enduranced tyrant stomping on them.

Look, armor shell was always a worthwhile upgrade on a walkrant, and yes it did get better, but it's not the omgpwnsauce that some people are making it out to be. That's all.

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2012 17:06:08 GMT wisdomseyes1 said:

Hive guard don't ignore automatic cover saves. They ignore the BENEFITS OF COVER, not coversaves. The 2 are completely different things.

Coversaves are a type of save.

Cover is something that grants you a coversave (see page 18)

Haven't read the article yet, going to soon though

The Tyranid FAQ says units cannot take cover saves from any source other than terrain they are in or touching. Jink confers a cover save. I can see thy people would disagree on a fluff basis but the RAW are clear as day, no jink against Impaler Cannons.

[wisdomseyes1]

fleetofclaw and 60mm:

I think something spectacular is going to happen this edition, something I have never been around because I started playing 40k in early 5th edition codex. I think, that the metagame is going to have to shift to deal with us

Before, Tyranids HAD to deal with the metagame. We couldn't deal with vehicles in any way, anti tank weapons were so prominent that our monstrous creatures had a hard time, anti infantry was small and short lived but next to every army had raipidfire. Tyranids were, effectively, one of the most laughter at armies because what we were best at was just just something that didn't ever happen in that meta. Tyranids had the best anti infantry in the game, we had the most resilient units to anti infantry fire (cheap wounds and multi wound t6) we were not a bad army in any way, but what Tyranids were best at was something that just didnt apply in that metagame. We had to use trygons, to deal with heavy armor and survive volumes of anti tank fire. We had to use hive guard to deal with transports. We had to use tervigons for feel no pain against missiles for monstrous creatures. We HAD to do a lot to work, and it sucked. No one had to make their list to deal with monstrous creatures, their solutions to those where the same as their solutions to vehicles but better, because until now... Vehicles didn't have "wounds".

Now 6th is here, and that thing we were good at... That thing so many laughed at, it's suggificant. It's lethal. It's everything I have ever dreamed of with Tyranids. It's the massive ammounts of fire I invisioned from my devilgants actually having a real target to hit. It's my trygon actually getting to combat and not trying to hit landraiders on 6's. It is just pure beauty.

What's my point? Right now, plasma is more popular than Lascannons, because terminators seem to have gotten harder to kill. Ap3 isn't good enough. No, hive tyrants where never scared of normal power weapons, but terminators were. Now they aren't, and that shifts the meta game to deal with them. Lascannons are not that valid an option against them, not with being primarily 1 shot each. In a terminator heavy metagame, you begin to see more ap2 shooting... Which is plasma. Anti vehicles consists of fliers and their ability to take out fliers. Missiles are cheaper than Lascannons and can be taken in mass, giving them an edge with snapfire rules.

Ap2 exists for killing terminators right now, not us. Last time I saw Lascannons was 1750 with 9 vendetas, and they were used to kill my gants after killing my tervigon, because there wasn't much else to shoot at. My trygons ripping appart his backfield? My Swarmlord with guard ad endurance? Yea... There wasn't much. He probably should have taken 6 vendettas with heavy bolters, because that would have been more effective overall in this metagame. And what did I just say? Take away the ranged ap2 weapons for the lower strength no suggificant ap shots that have more mass fire.

Armored shell became much better, because the idea of piercing it, you assume the model with it is t4. Justified at that, since there are 2 t6 models I know of that have a 2+ save in tha game (tfex and tyrant) Lascannons lost a lot of their power because volumes of fire became more important than the initial strength of the weapon.

[fragile]

We are already seeing lascannon/ plasma spam here to counter the Terminators now. Curious how the meta is shifting. There has been no change in vehicles here yet.