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Post by Lanesend on Jul 27, 2012 7:54:27 GMT
Come on people, let's not derail a thread of a brand new Hive member. Hi Gaatsu, One thing about those Warriors. Whatever you decide to do with them (IF you take them), it is normally best to go completly shooty or completly assaulty. Otherwise they will become too expensive. IMO good builds are: Shooty Warriors with ScyTals (free) and Deathspitters (the str.5 is worth the points) and a Barbed strangler for extra wounds and pinning. Assault Warriors Cheap: RClaws, ScyTals, Toxin sacs (the TS let you re-roll most wounds giving more chances to Rend). These guys are 35 points Assault Warriors expensive: Scytals, Tox sacs, Bsword&Lashwhip. Ignore all(!) armorsaves in an edition where powerswords cannot pierce Terminator armor anymore) but they come at a cost: 50 points a piece. A Tyranid Prime will make all of those a lot more survivable. Good luck with the list-building!  |
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Post by amareis on Jul 27, 2012 13:01:12 GMT
A bit off-topic: I still don't get why people buy deathspitters over devourers? Granted they have the potential to get more hits if the scatter is good and you get AP, but devourers reduce Ld and have S6, wounding MEq on a 2+ With the current MEq spam I think 2+ to wound is important and the extra S helps to get those glancing hits on vehicles. On-topic: Gaatsu, find you style of play, be it shooty, assaulty or whatever I think CC nids are more fun, but with the overwatch and "no-charge on reserve" changes, I might shift to more shooty nids since they seem more viable. The venom cannon is again worth it's points for vehicle busting so you don't have to invest in an expensive T-fex with rupture cannon to get hits on vehicles (I wonder if I'll ever play my T-fex as a T-fex again...) |
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Post by Bot on Jul 27, 2012 13:31:50 GMT
I've been reading over these forums for a few weeks now and have found SO much helpful information. I've also recently returned to 40k after a 10 year hiatus. I used to run a Blood Angels army, but have always really liked the Tyranids. Since I can't find my old BAs anywhere I'm using this as my excuse to finally start a Nid army ;D. I picked up A Tyranid Battleforce and Hive Tyrant off Ebay for a fair price and a friend gave me a box of Raveners that he wasn't going to use. It seems I've come back to 40k at a rough time because the new rule set just came out and I have NO idea how I should fill my army out. I originally wanted a bunch of mean Nids to overwhelm my enemies and devour them in CC, but everyone is telling me that CC got nerfed this edition. I only have the 5th ED rules too so I really can't read up on the changes yet. Everyone I've talked to tells me that if I'm going to play Nids effectively I should just spam Tervigons and Termagants. I think that's super lame and there are so many useful and awesome looking units that there has to be a better and more fun way to play the army. My questions to you are: 1. Can a CC oriented Nid army still do well in 6th ED or should I build a more shooty army? 2. Will I still be able to do well as a Nid player if I don't want to "Spam Tervigons for the win"? 3. What units would you suggest to help me fill out my army and why? (I was thinking of grabbing a Zoan or two) Thanks ahead of time for your help! Hi and welcome to the Hive, gaatsu! 1) Yes, CC oriented nids can still work. 2)Yes you can. Though if at first, you try them out, you'll get addicted to it. (Just like me. xD ) 3) That depends on what kind of CC army you would want to play. Would you want to play with the Slow Brute force or would you like to kill with the faster type of list? As for the discussion between Maeloke, Squash and wisdom, I'm actually not sure who I should agree with... but so far I think I'll have to go with the Trygon. It doesn't require as much attention from the rest of your army and it not as narrow as the Carnifex as of which units it can deal with. So the safe bet would be the Trygon IMO. But Wisdom did come with a lot of good points and I might just dust off my fexes one of these days and give them another chance to prove what they are worth. A bit off-topic: I still don't get why people buy deathspitters over devourers? Granted they have the potential to get more hits if the scatter is good and you get AP, but devourers reduce Ld and have S6, wounding MEq on a 2+ With the current MEq spam I think 2+ to wound is important and the extra S helps to get those glancing hits on vehicles. I don't think I've seen anyone here on the Hive ever choosing Deathspitters on an MC above Devours. Devours are indeed the deal if it comes to shooting fexes or Tyrants for that matter. If you were thinking about Lanesend and Deathspitter Warriors, you must remember that the Devours you get to them, are "only" S4. Here Deathspitters are better as they have the same "rate of fire" as devours, Higher strength and they have an AP. |
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Post by Lanesend on Jul 27, 2012 14:57:18 GMT
A bit off-topic: I still don't get why people buy deathspitters over devourers? Granted they have the potential to get more hits if the scatter is good and you get AP, but devourers reduce Ld and have S6, wounding MEq on a 2+ With the current MEq spam I think 2+ to wound is important and the extra S helps to get those glancing hits on vehicles. Hey Amareis, Like Bot said, I would never advise taking deathspitters over "Brainleech" devourers! But for warriors, the deathspitter performs quite well. (If we could take BL devs on warriors, I would (-remark not suitable for kids-).  ) Also, in my experience, the -1 to LD doesn't do much. It's only in effect if the target unit has to make an LD check (not pinning or morale) for lost wounds at the end of the same shooting phase. And that blast-attack from deathspitters is from the 4th ed. codex |
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Post by gaatsu on Jul 27, 2012 17:28:04 GMT
I didn't expect to get so many replies while I was gone! sturm: Thanks for clarifying about the gargoyles. As I said I don't have the new Rule book yet so I can't look it up myself. Regardless Gargoyles do look REALLY awesome now that I have looked at them and mostly understand how they work. If I were to run a non-flyrant how would I be able to keep them in synapse?Also why do you take your warriors shooty? maeloke: Funnily enough I was planning on running my Warriors behind my Hormies as well. You also said that you run your Warriors shooty. Also why do you take your warriors shooty? It sounds like you are making a mostly CC Nid list and I've been told that specialized lists (mostly CC or mostly shooty) seem to work better than balanced. I always thought a balanced list would work quite well with specialized units if you knew what to do with them. But I've also never played Nids. wisdomseyes1: You bring up a lot of good points on both the Trygon and the Carnifex. I understand that every unit in this game has it's strength's and weakness' and to me it's hard to compare them on equal terms. If I'm not mistaken the Carnifex would be slightly better at taking out vehicles and the Trygon would be slightly better vs infantry. The big difference being that Trygon's cost more points. From everything I've read on Carnifexes so far they really can't stand on their own. You need to take broods of them and/or attach a prime to them to make them effective. Once you do so they are pretty beast, but that's A LOT of points especially for someone with a roughly 700 pt army right now. In this case I think I'll get a Trygon over a Carnifex. Another question I have is if I use a Trygon does the special rule "subterranean assault" ever have it's uses in a game? On paper it looks pretty sweet, but as we all know that's far from how it may actually work in game. Lanesend: You're right about not making a hybrid Warrior, they do seem to tack on points pretty fast. The load outs you describe all seem effective to me so I'll have to give them all a try when I actually get around to magnetizing my Warriors (What a pain). I had hoped that my Warriors might be able to pack a punch in combat so stronger units on the board would have to make the choice of being swarmed by Gants or wrecked by Warriors. You also say IF I take warriors. Do you not take them in your army? amareis: Valid point. Again I've been told that specialized armies tend to work better than balanced. I'll have to decide which one I really want from my army. Also a really good idea on the venom cannon. my only question is how reliable is a venom cannon? with it being a blast marker won't I have chances to miss due to scatter dice? @totally not a Bot: I hear nothing but great things about the Tervigon and I'm sure I'll eventually cave in and try one. I just don't like the idea of the "best" Tyranid army being Tervigon spam. The Tyranids are too versatile for something like that. If I were to play a CC army (and boy do I) I would want an aggressive army. I think that translates to faster lists. Since we don't have transport vehicles to haul our troops across the battlefield (like my Blood Angels) I'm a bit lost as how this will actually play out. |
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Post by scrotatohead on Jul 27, 2012 18:44:33 GMT
I hear nothing but great things about the Tervigon and I'm sure I'll eventually cave in and try one. I just don't like the idea of the "best" Tyranid army being Tervigon spam. The Tyranids are too versatile for something like that. If I were to play a CC army (and boy do I) I would want an aggressive army. I think that translates to faster lists. Since we don't have transport vehicles to haul our troops across the battlefield (like my Blood Angels) I'm a bit lost as how this will actually play out. We've got one of the best transport vehicles in the game in our spore pod. Drop a brood of devilgants in your opponents backfield and watch the transports and tanks go down to glancing hits. With the pod's ability to now ignore dangerous terrain it can pretty much come down anywhere on the board with impunity, delivering dual-devouerer 'fex, warriors, zoans, and the Doom to clip vehicles to pieces and thin infantry down to reasonable numbers for assault. I've read a number of battle reports where pod-heavy 'nid armies have made short order of IG, BA, and so on, especially if the opponent is relying on flyers. In 6th edition reserves come in turn two on a 3. With a Hive Tyrant you're coming in on 2's, so most of your reserves should pod in turn two to just create chaos on your opponent's side of the board. |
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Post by maeloke on Jul 27, 2012 18:57:12 GMT
Glad you’re not getting bogged down by distracting side threads, here  I run shooty warriors in a CC list because, well, it’s fun to have all-around solid troops for cheap (relatively speaking). 4 warriors with a Prime unload an average of 10 S5 hits with deathspitters (wisdom: 15 shots at 4/6 chance of hitting = 10 hits on average) which can be pretty considerable damage, depending on the target. You have decent odds of glancing AV10 to death, and it’s an extra ~2 saves that any MeQ unit has to succeed at per turn beyond regular devourers. Skimmers especially can give a CC army fits unless you have some way of touching them at range. Making warriors shooty also lets them be useful when performing boring, tactical actions moves like holding objectives. There’s really no reason to park 20 hormagaunts in some ruins, but Warriors packing firepower are still a threat and don’t crumble when an assault squad looks at them crosswise, as termagants are prone to. As for list balance: really, I think the thing is to not let your opponent choose how they face your army. If you divide yourself too cleanly into CC and shooting, you’re easy to pick apart. A successful all-CC army relies on presenting too many threats for an opponent to address at once. The cool thing about tyranids is that some of our most aggressive CC units can also take good, supplemental ranged weaponry with virtually no impact to melee utility (especially raveners and trygons). With the removal of run+assault, there is a lot more incentive in 6e to take some potshots before crashing in. I just like rippers and hormagaunts |
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Post by scrotatohead on Jul 27, 2012 18:57:14 GMT
Plus I should add since there's no model for the spore pod you can pretty much use what ever you want provided it's an appropriate size for the table. Stick a couple MC scything talons in a potato and plop it down on the board. I know players who use large styrophoam cups. I've used soda pop cans. No one complains because you aren't throwing basketballs and pumpkins on the board.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 27, 2012 19:24:22 GMT
Well, I have never considered the prime part of the cost of the carnifex in any edition, because I was going to take the prime anyway  Another thing trygons to have is being access to 2 extra wounds, which means it takes more firepower when not applying outside forces. If we compare the carnifex to the trygon, the fex is only better when you have the points to take more than the trygon, but otherwise I feel they are pretty equal in this edition. (point for point) If you compare it to the tervigan however, you get sad... Becausethe tervigan is better on almost all fronts. The only thing fexen have over a tervigan is the devourers. The powers make up for it 10 fold, and smash rules make fexen strength look so worthless. Your subterranean assault question I assume refers to to the hole? It's pretty worthless. You have to keep your units in reserve, hope the trygon comes out turn 2 and not the unit you want to use, then on turn 3 your guys can pop out but can't assault... An of your guys come out sooner, you have to walk on the board normally. You an not declare they are going through the hole. You can not declare they are deepstriking or outflanking and then change your mind. There is just so much about it that makes it not worth the time |
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Post by hellhammer on Jul 27, 2012 19:26:53 GMT
I have to contribute from my shooty experience with dakkafex:
it works, mostly, but it's not enough to finish the job (breaking/destroying units)
thats why trygons are still the better investment for the heavysupport slot(s)
6 wounds and great melee stats are still superior to TL +6 shots from the dakkafex, he falls quickly to the following assault, where the trygon may even have the advantage of attacking first
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Post by gaatsu on Jul 28, 2012 16:00:14 GMT
Well I have only a few more questions to ask before I start putting my list together.
I see a lot of people talking about getting cover saves especially for their MCs. I thought that you can only get 1 save on your models be it Armor, Invuln, or Cover save. If you can only get a 5+ cover save in 6th ED doesn't it really only help Termagants and Hormagaunts?
Venomthropes. Are they worth it? They look like a really awesome support unit, but they seem pretty fragile for their points cost.
I'm about to start putting my Termagants together and I can't decide if I should toss Fleshborers or Devourers on them. With Fleshborers I feel like I would screen first with my termagants so the can overwatch other assault units. With Devourers I feel like I could sit them a little further back and send out waves of hurt, but for double the points.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jul 28, 2012 16:27:27 GMT
Ap 3, ap 2, ap 1. These weapons are anywhere from s7 to stengh 10. Coversaves help.
They used to be one of my favorite units. 5+ cover on my monstrous creatures was invaluable. Defensive grenades were amazing. Dangerous terrain tests made our models the most threatening models people tried to charge. It was great.
FAQ hit them hard. Opponent strikes at normal initiave, only the venomthropes benefit from assault grenades now (and it's not even grenades, it's just the ability) and new rules for cover say MC's will get cover without as many issues.
They aren't bad. I still like them, just not as much. The only real advantage to their cover is opponents can't focus fire them.
I have a little over 100 gants, and decided to models them 60 devourers and 40 flesh borers.
The actual decision lies on what you want the termagants for. Just need a troop to hold objectives? Could go either way. Low points and you want a cheap scoring unit? Small unit of 10 or 20 (I personally am fond of 15) that go to ground on an objective you control and stay there. If you just want them or a tervigon, you can choose either but bring AT LEAST 18-27 vanilla (fleshboarers) depending on if you are going to restrict your spawning to turn 5 or going to make gants every turn. And if you want to deal tons of damage and move them forward, or put them in a spore to take them as a suicide unit, use devourers.
It's what you need them for. I use devourers much more often, personally. But that's because I hate useless units in combat. Termagants are useful no matter what you put on them (and I will slap you if you attempt to take the strangle web, don't. Ever)
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Post by sturm on Jul 28, 2012 19:02:57 GMT
sturm: Thanks for clarifying about the gargoyles. As I said I don't have the new Rule book yet so I can't look it up myself. Regardless Gargoyles do look REALLY awesome now that I have looked at them and mostly understand how they work. If I were to run a non-flyrant how would I be able to keep them in synapse?Also why do you take your warriors shooty? Gargoyles are great used as screening units, but they really can pack a punch or be part of the early assault while the rest of your army walks up the board. Now if you don't want a flyrant, they are still useful and there is several ways to keep them in synapse. One is to have a large synapse web with multiple units across the board if you dont feel like having units escort other units. A deep striking trygon prime can work, as well as zoanthrope or even warriors in pods. That way you have you back field synapses walking up and you have front line synapses. The only thing here is that it relies on roll of reserves, as you dont want tour gargoyles up the field and have synapse units delayed by poor rolls. Anoher way would be to escort your gargoyles with shrikes, basically flying warriors. They move at the same pace as gargoyles and work well together. I usually take CC shrikes to kill quickly whatever the gargoyles are charging. Now for warriors, the way i use them usually means they arr better suited with range weapons. Either they babysit hive guards or biovore or they camp on objectives. Being always at range means CC wont do much for them. Even when i walk them up, i feel like they are mostly support units, with their basic fonction being providing synapse. I will rarely run them with the intention to get them into a big fight. IMO, shrikes are doing the same job in CC, and they get there quicker. |
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Post by creep on Jul 29, 2012 13:08:59 GMT
For crying out loud, there's nothing wrong with providing an average number of hits per round, given not all guns are twin linked, and not all models have the same ballistics skills. In the world of wisdomseyes1's logic a mycetic spore's twin linked deathspitter and a warrior's deathspitter are identical, given that they all fire three shots. Must be a "Los Angelas" thing. In the world of Wisdomseyes1 (impresse you wrote my name correctly by the way, kudos. Copy paste? Almost no one gets it right), we look at 12 s6 tl shots at bs3, not 9 average shots... And I have this feeling you won't be able to find someone else who has recently done that (unless you pull a dakka post maybe, but they advocate using warrior models as harpies, so I laugh at anything they say anyway) Regardless, let's drop it, shall we? This nonsense is not appropriate conduct of give members. Stop it with the random attacks on me. Stop commenting on my "Los angelas" ness, where, by the way, I don't actually live at (shock and awe, a person lied on the Internet about who they really were and we're they really lived) it's funny... You can choose to be anything you want to be on the Internet... Why do so many people chose to be stupid and mean? *sigh* Carnifexen are effective at taking down tanks. The only real reason right now to not take them is because tervigan are more flexible and pretty equally strong with the new smash rules. When compared to trygons, they are weaker vs infantry (though most infantry has a hard time against either) but the fexen make up for it with the ability to attach with a prime for wound allocation tricks (ultimately costing more, but the points limit changes things) Against vehicles, fexen are equally effective with trygons... Actually, that's a lie: carnifexen are better at taking out transports more consistently because carnifexen don't need to smash to do well for crying out loud? Have you read the rulebook and done the math? A Trygon is superior to a Fex in 95% of the cases. Light vehicles. Trygon 4 Attacks S 10 reroll to hit and to pen so i need 3 out of 4 hits with rerollable 3+ and i have 6 shots S5 which can already clance one or two points away at range. Carnifex has an attack more and does*t reroll to pen. So even higher Chance to wreck a transport. But can't shoot. Against Necrons with 11/11/11 AV or Monoliths, LRs, Leman Russes, Cybots and Drop Pods. The Trygon is better as he still can shoot and has an attack more while in smashing mode. So we have on the con side irrelevant disadvantage against transports, 40 points increased cost On the pro side mobility, Initiative, survivability, shooting, better against anything in CC exept X/X/10 AV. Carnifexen are not effective at killing tanks. They are too slow, cost to much and others can do better and or cheaper. I wouldn't even give advice to use a Trygon although he is far far better for his points. The only way to go is Dakkafex, but to make that work you need 2 and a Prime + Psychic support. Eats up 500 points easiely. for good survivaility but 24 TL Dev shots that blocks an HQ slot i could have used for a flyrant. 2 Flyrants would also have 24 Tl Dev shots that can threat anything on the table in turn 2, shoot them from rear/side if you want to, are psykers, are way more endurable and cost about the same. Don't give bad advice to people. For Tyranids it depends. If your CC unit could also shoot. You better take the shooting as well, cause Tyranids will usually still be deadly in melee even if they shoot. If something is just good for close combat, like Hormagaunts. There is usually a better option. In this case Gargoyles. If you have to decide between pure melee like e.g Ymgarls and pure shooting e.g. Hive Guard. They are awesome at shooting but still don't suck in CC. Summarized you want to be able to shoot even if you are running in CC. some ranged support is always nice to have as an option. |
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