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Post by gloomfang on Jul 24, 2012 22:00:59 GMT
pseudonymion: I don't use fortifications yet as I don't have the models or pts available in my league. (Just started. Start with a 5K army list. Pick your units from that list for every game. Chance the unit will never come back if dead. 1K in renforcements.) I have had good luck with flyers becasue the armys that tend to have flyers tend to not have psyker defence. I see flyers and I spam TK with every psker to get as many OMs as I can. Tends to work as with my 2K list I can down 1 flyer (or squadron) per turn.
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Post by dakkathrope on Jul 24, 2012 22:17:58 GMT
I've been to one tournament since 6th dropped and it wasn't too bad. However, it was at 1000 pts and everybody was still new to the rules. My army was
Tervigon as HQ
Deathleaper
DoM
Hive Guard x3
Warriors w/ lash,bone and deathspitters x4
rippers x5
Gargoyles x20
I ended up in second.
The biggest thing that iritated me was the guy who played a sisters/IG list and complained constantly about how broken my one unit of hive guard and DoM (I even let him adjust his move since he didn't know DoM's effect was every shooting phase) were, while all of my models with T4 were being ID.
Due to the difficultly I had pulling 2nd in the tournament I don't want to see what it will look like at higher point totals and with more exploitation of certain units.
I also talked to my TO and he told me nids didn't need an "ally with self" rule modification to be competitive and that we had too many units that are too powerful to be fair in that set up. (he was the sisters/IG that i demolished because he plays stupidly)
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Post by pseudonymion on Jul 24, 2012 23:36:23 GMT
gloomfangI've been running heavy psyker lists thus far to good success. I've primarily stuck with Biomancy thus far (usually with Tyrants and Tervigons). I have shied away from Telekinesis because I just felt that more Biomancy powers were beneficial to the army. For all the new benefits to MCs -- Smash, Hammer of Wrath, a flying-version-- MC's with psychic powers might be our best piece of 6th edition. Maybe getting multiple copies of Objuration Mechanicum mixed with Dakkafexen and a double dakka Flyrant will provide some needed anti-air. I pretty much always have a Flyrant and three or four Tervigons (mostly four lately). I dropped the 2x2 Zoanthropes in pods so that is four less psykers (they were really....bleh). That was another cool thing about double force org -- lots of slots for psykers. Thanks for the OM suggestion though. I will probably give that a test run next week.
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Post by coredump on Jul 25, 2012 7:25:07 GMT
Really people...  Whining this hard already?? Lets look at this. Double FoC may not be a stupid move... but most folks think it probably will be. It will probably be almost a year or more before any large tourney is willing to try it. And it isn't a Nid Nerf... it would help everybody. Some armies more than Nids. Allies: We have no idea how this is going to pan out. Yes I think it would be nice if Nids could ally with themselves. But that is also a pretty powerful combo, which may not be balanced the other way. For the most part, I don't think allies are going to be all that big of a deal. They get some extra slots, but not extra points. Any list I have build for 6th tends to run out of points way before I run out of slots. It would be nice to have an extra Elite or FA... but do you really think you have some 'killer competitive' list if you could only unlock one more slot?? Go ahead and post it, I am dieing to see what it is. Flyers: Allies will not help us with flyers. Flyers are currently OP, and allies would not help with that. Sure, you could grab some hydras... but so what, they will just be the first to die. Or be useless if there are no flyers around. We might be able to grab a flyer or two; but could not use them as transports for our troops... and we would still get crushed by a flyer list. Fortifications: So who here was really going to spend 220pts on a FoR??? anyone?? Lets say you decide you want a Bastion... is it really a deal breaker that it will fire by itself at BS2, instead of using one of your BS3 models?? Or were you going to have a venomthrope be the only model in the bastion, so that 1 heavy bolter could fire a bit better? Perhaps warriors and a prime, so you can give up the Prime shooting his Deathspitter to get a little better with the HBolter? IOW, this is, again, no big deal. Before we wail and moan about the injustice that is the 40K abuse of the Tyranid army; I would be very curious to hear concrete examples of what you were planning on doing before we got so majorly screwed. What killer list did you have planned if we could ally with ourselves? How would you have mastered the battlefield, if only you could manually fire those heavy bolters? How would allies let you deal with those 9 Necron flyers? (and still beat any other list?) Also, any Necron player that wastes points on Orks.... hasn't realized the power of their codex... edit: One last thing. If you were willing to go to tournaments last year with Nids; it makes absolutely not sense why you would skip them now. We are in a much better situation now than we were then. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 25, 2012 9:59:43 GMT
7-8 scoring Nob Bikers with a Warboss, all counting as characters, is not a waste of points in a Necron army.
But in general I think the threat of allies is exaggerated. I might chance my mind if it turns out that everyone and his aunt will bring a runed up Farseer.
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Post by maugrim on Jul 25, 2012 10:15:17 GMT
The greater issue is with 2000 point tourneys is the TOs bowing to the desire of their players (regardless of length of game issues or play balance issues at higher points) to bring all of their toys to the table. Why not play at 1750 points, or *gasp* 1500?
Would all of these super-combos work as well (Leafblower)? No. Would Spam be as big a problem (Razorwolves)? No. Would some of these OP armies be as powerful (Draigo)? No.
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Post by pseudonymion on Jul 25, 2012 15:49:22 GMT
A few points:
- As I stated before, the double FoC impact is unknown and it might benefit others more than Nids. Where it has helped my list building is in expanding the HQ and Troop slots (from a 5th ed. perspective, obviously it would have been the Elite slots). I find that a Flyrant and a Tyranid Prime are essential (the way I play) and I've been running four Tervigons (Psyker, MC, scoring unit; too good to leave home). With the Termagant tax, I've busted the single force org.
- I believe fortifications are a waste for Tyranids. My point, however, was addressing the three methods in 6th edition that armies might vary from 5th edition list building; allies, fortifications, and double force org. The first is unavailable, the second is wasteful points (from my perspective) and the third is taken away by the tournament organizer.
- And if anyone thinks I believe I had the NOVA winning list but they just won't let me play it (I never said that!), let me set those concerns aside. I wish I had a magic list that I could give everyone, but as I said earlier, I'm just now re-learning how Nids play in 6th edition (basically a different list every week). What works so far...
- Flyrant (x2 TL Devs) - general flying threat
- Tyranid Prime (x2 BS, Regen) w/ x2 Dakkafexes - anti-aircraft and MC threat
- X4 Tervigons (No CClaws, max psychic powers, AG/TS)
- x3 or x4Gants (troop tax for the Tervigons -- we play NOVA missions so scoring troops are essential)
- x4 Raveners (used Devourers last week -- would like to try Gargoyles but don't want to run PoM)
Flyrant swoops first turn and positions toward enemy rear to cause havoc. Prime and Carnifexes march up middle and provide threat and AA support. Tervigons do the same, leaving Gants as scoring units in rear (maybe one Terv kinda hangs back also,..maybe). BTW the Tyrant and Tervigons have rolled on the Biomancy chart for getting psychic unit buffs (I may be rethinking this slightly and expand to Telepathy and Telekinesis). Raveners move through cover to provide threat and find suitable target. Hey, it's not perfect but I spurt a bunch of Gants that tie up CC threats and MCs Smashing vehicles gets a destroyed vehicle everytime (1 for 1 on Land Raiders, too). Obviously that is NOT a magic list and I have no idea how it would do against 9 Necron flyers (never said I could beat a list like that). But it's worked against Chaos SM, Tau and Space Wolves, thus far. I would like to drop the Raveners and add a Broodlord (or two) for more spamming of psychic powers, but without the double force org, that 's not gonna fly (I'm intrigued by Gargoyles too, but don't want to run PoM for synapse).
- Final point, personally I wouldn't have played Tyranids last year because I left 40K for the last year and a half because the play environment just wasn't interesting (I play multiple other game systems and would highly recommend Malifaux to anyone). I wasn't competitive last year with Nids and I just quit playing them. Frankly, 6th edition has really got me excited about playing 40K again. Nids got several good bumps and the challenge to build something competitive has got me interested again. Unfortunately this will have to be done within a single force org (although we play rulebook in our local gaming group so I get two force orgs at home). My reason for the original thread was to (a) let everyone know that major tournaments ARE going with a single force org (at least initially). It was suspected, now it's confirmed, and (b) I think it's BS that Nids don't have access to a rule that is in the rulebook. We may still be a top tier army even within a single force org, but the option to use two -- as spelled out in the rulebook -- would have been good.
Side note - I think Orks and Necrons are a better match-up than you think they are. Fearless 30-man blob scoring units and the shooty army from h*** behind them,...yes, please. And if you don't like Orcs, imagine Necrons with some GK Paladins or Terminators. I also think allies are not to spam another single FoC slot but will fill a shortfall of the primary army; read psychic defense, anti-aircraft, resilient scoring troops, etc.
I'm still going to work to make the most competitive Nid list I can build. I am not going to play NOVA (general principle) and as I play them more and get more comfortable with the new rule set, I will re-evaluate as more tournaments become available in the future.
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Post by Davor on Jul 25, 2012 22:26:56 GMT
7-8 scoring Nob Bikers with a Warboss, all counting as characters, is not a waste of points in a Necron army. When was this proven? I am sure there is no 7-8 characters in that Nob Bikers. It is only the Nob Biker that is upgraded to the "seargent" role or one that is designated as "seargent" for that group/brood/unit. So please tell me what page number or link me to the thread that has proven that it is 7-8 Bib /bikers as characters, please. Also, said it once before, I will say it again, 1999+1 points is still 2000 points no mater how you try to slice it. |
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Post by coredump on Jul 25, 2012 23:47:25 GMT
Davor: Currently Nobs are listed as characters, so that is what they are. Same as Paladins and Wolf guard. There is some indication that GW didn't mean for this, but we won't know until it does/doesn't get FAQd
pseudo: Thanks for such a complete response.
But I feel it supports my stance. If tomorrow Mike called and said you could take your list as is; I don't think it would be much better than what you could do with one FOC. And there are plenty of other lists that would have a much larger incremental improvement.
Taking your list, the only issue is the 4th Tervigon.
I assert that there are a number of possible changes you could make that would make your list just as good, or better, and stay within the single FOC.
My personal recommendation would be to add 2 zoans for the powers, and add CCLaws to the three remaining tervigons to make them much more of a threat.
Likewise, you could remove a tervi for a trygon.
Or for 3 zoans and some extra points,
a brood of yealers and some extra points
two zoans and two hive guard (minus 10 points)
There are probably others, but I think any of those will lead to a list that is just as powerful, and perhaps moreso.
And that is my point, we are not hurt by the single FOC, nor the (very slight) nerf with emplaced weapons. (And we get the buff of no IB tests)
It would be nice to have access to allies... but we have yet to see if that is really going to make much of a difference yet.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 26, 2012 0:38:50 GMT
Biggest reason not to allow 2nd FOC is guard. We had another thread around here somewhere that spelled it out:
2 aegis lines
2 command squads
4 troops hiding behind the lines
5 Valkyries
6 manticores
and yes, that fits in 2k points.
Do you really want to play vs a list like that? If they go first your likely tabled before you get a turn, unless your table is really big or you get lucky. Then the Valkyries come in and your royally screwed.
That alone is enough for me to not like double FOC.
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Post by pseudonymion on Jul 26, 2012 18:53:16 GMT
@core
Yea, it's quite possible I may be able to tune this thing to make it just as effective (or more) in a single FoC. I am a big Trygon fan (and have run as many as three (all I've got) in a single list). Tervigons, though, with HoW, access to Smash, AND as many as three different psychic powers have displaced Trygons with me (for the time being -- I still think deep-striking Trygons provide such a rear threat that you force your opponent to deal with them rather than something they would like to do, but that's another issue).
I'll have to start thinking of this thing in a single force org light. Dropping the fourth Terv was actually already on my mind from last week (over a 100 Gants on the table at the end of the game), but I was leaning to Gargoyles to provide some screening action (and a threat). That would free me up from the Venomthropes (I didn't mention earlier but I run two) and I usually keep one Terv with original psychic powers (Catalyst) to cast FNP on the Prime/Carnifex brood. The Gargoyles really need PoM so my Flyrant doesn't have to escort them with synapse -- but then I've got a HQ decision to make. With the FoC restriction, everything will have to be re-visited and re-evaluated.
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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 26, 2012 20:35:21 GMT
So far in 6th ed, our issue with the cramped Elite slots have diminished with the nerf hammer coming down on vehicles. In 6th ed we will be able to get away with dedicating only 1-2 Elite slots to anti-mech, so the mileage we would get from more FOC slots is probably less than you might think.
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Post by eugee on Jul 26, 2012 23:17:18 GMT
Incidentally, the most common W40K games being played at my FLGS is 1999+1. No one likes the double FOCs @ 2K really, especially since the house rule was 2501 for 2x FOC for years here.
Most of them also think Nids took it in the keister on allies, but I don't blame them for taking them. I personally think Allies are a very lazy way to balance armies, but a nice way to try out another codex.
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Post by killme304 on Jul 27, 2012 0:02:07 GMT
From my understanding, a lot of games over in the UK are typically 1500 for tourneys, whereas over here, its 2k+. The double FOC thing fells like a way to ease into apoc.
I'm actually surprised NOVA would allow allies, even if there are only a few broken combinations.
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Post by coredump on Jul 27, 2012 5:14:42 GMT
pseudo: I am not convinced you need PoM to run gargs. You have synapse all over the board, it shouldn't be too difficult to keep one garg in range of one of them.
And I really like tervigons now too. (didn't really like them before) I really suggest you try one with CClaws and biomancy. As CC deadly as a fex, and still gets to spawn gaunts.
Killme: most folks are still wondering how allies are going to work out. They really want to check things out before just declaring them broken when they might not be.
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Whining this hard already??
"
