Need help with assault

[rpricew]

I got a 1000 point game in last night.

Hive Tyrant assaulted through cover and made base contact with a ghost knight from Mordrak's unit. The Tyrant had a lash whip.

How would Hammer of Wrath work with issuing a challenge? I challenged Mordrak and he moved into base contact with the Tyrant.

Since we both struck at the same time, we just resolved their own attacks.. But I didn't know how to add in the HOW attack. Would it go on the Terminator I initially made base with or wait and put it on Mordrak when the swinging starts?

[PumpkinHead]

I am still learning as well, but I believe HoW attacks happen to the model you come in base contact with.

[gloomfang]

Jul 20, 2012 13:35:56 GMT rpricew said:

I got a 1000 point game in last night.

Hive Tyrant assaulted through cover and made base contact with a ghost knight from Mordrak's unit. The Tyrant had a lash whip.

How would Hammer of Wrath work with issuing a challenge? I challenged Mordrak and he moved into base contact with the Tyrant.

Since we both struck at the same time, we just resolved their own attacks.. But I didn't know how to add in the HOW attack. Would it go on the Terminator I initially made base with or wait and put it on Mordrak when the swinging starts?

Ok that is a complex question.

1) Charging through cover makes the HT I1.

2) Tyrant makes contact with the ghost. Ghost goes to I1 for the rest of combat from LW.

3) Challenges are made and accepted. Move into BtB. Mordrak goes to I1 from LW (I think he already was, but lets be complete about it.)

4) Start of combat. I10 attacks go off. HoW goes into effect and hits the Ghost as that was the model that intial contact was made. The target is the one you made BtB with on the charge. It is just not resolved until I10.

5)Combat goes on as usuall.

Hope that clears it up. It is confusing.

[rpricew]

^^ That's how I played it, but just to clarify, since HOW counts as a AP - hit, does the Ghost Knight Terminator get his regular 2+ save or since the attack comes from a MC using a Bonesword, what would be the AP of the HOW attack?

[revx]

i would says the AP- overrides your boneswords.

[coredump]

Few things:

Nid "CCWs" are more like wargear than weapons. They may all of your attacks be a certain way. If you read the rules about Power weapons, or Force, or Thunderhammers... they talk about the 'weapon' having a certain effect. The Nid ones all talk about the 'model with the X" having a certain effect.
IOW, you need to use a Power weapon to benefit from the Power ability, you do not need to use the rending claws/bonesword/scytals/etc to gain the benefit from them.

That all said, Models with boneswords always attack at AP-, they just also ignore armor saves. So in this case, the HoW would ignore armor saves.

OTOH.....I am not convinced if would go against the IC or the unit in general.... at this point I am inclined to say the IC, since by the time it is resolved, that is the 'closest' model.

[gloomfang]

Jul 20, 2012 17:25:28 GMT coredump said:

That all said, Models with boneswords always attack at AP-, they just also ignore armor saves. So in this case, the HoW would ignore armor saves.

OTOH.....I am not convinced if would go against the IC or the unit in general.... at this point I am inclined to say the IC, since by the time it is resolved, that is the 'closest' model.

1) The issue is does HoW count as an CC attack. I do not think so, but they do need an FAQ. It happens outside of the Fight Subphase, the wound just gets resolved at I10.

2) HoW does not say the closest model. It says the model in BtB contact after the charge takes the hit.

[virtualsniper]

I tend to agree with coredump, as there is nothing in the rule saying the special rule of a weapon or any upgrade, biomorph cannot be use, (except one that modify strength) it only says an additional attack with ap - . And it doens't even specify that you have to hit the model you made contact with during the charge. Only that if you get in contact, you get an additional attack an that it is resolve at I10.

[gloomfang]

Jul 20, 2012 17:42:22 GMT virtualsniper said:

I tend to agree with coredump, as there is nothing in the rule saying the special rule of a weapon or any upgrade, biomorph cannot be use, (except one that modify strength) it only says an additional attack with ap - . And it doens't even specify that you have to hit the model you made contact with during the charge. Only that if you get in contact, you get an additional attack an that it is resolve at I10.

Your wrong on the first point becasue it specificly says that MCs do not get AP2 from Smash. However it does not prohibit anything else. It needs an FAQ badly as I can see both sides of the rules arguement.

I don't have the BRB with me right now, I will double check it when I get home. I might have read it wrong. I guess the only thing it would effect is challanges.

[virtualsniper]

I see your point but it specifically says it is ap-. So it is clear you cannot get a better ap value from anything (including smash). But in the case of special rules telling you to ignore armor saves, there is nothing telling you you can't.

It is totally fine to have a weapon with an ap value higher (less good) that the armor you have, but with a special rule saying you ignore saves anyway.

ap- and "never ignores armor save" is not the same thing.

But you are right it needs to be faq and I would not be surprise if it would be faq'ed so that you always get your saves.

[coredump]

HoW is a CC attack; what else can it be? It is an attack, in the Assault phase, resolved at Init steps with all the other CC attacks.
And if someone claims it isn't a CC attack... it really opens up a can of worms. Can you take cover saves? How is it allocated? Does it count toward combat res? etc.


Read HoW again, it never says it effects the model you are in base contact with. It says that if you are in base contact, you get one extra attack, resolved at I10. In normal situations (non-challenge) it would behave as any other CC attack, and go against the 'unit'; thus get allocated closest first.

[gloomfang]

Jul 20, 2012 18:34:18 GMT coredump said:

HoW is a CC attack; what else can it be? It is an attack, in the Assault phase, resolved at Init steps with all the other CC attacks.
And if someone claims it isn't a CC attack... it really opens up a can of worms. Can you take cover saves? How is it allocated? Does it count toward combat res? etc.

So what you are saying is that Shrikes with TS and Boneswords get to reroll to wound, ignores armor and roll for ID on an HoW attack?

I'm still really on the fence about it. Its one of the questions I have to ask the TO before I play at tomarrows tournament.

[fragile]

I would tend to agree here that HoW is a CC attack, as the rule states the model makes 1 additional attack at I10. As far a wargear goes, aka boneswords, I am on the fence on this one. The rule states that the attack is AP-. AP- says that it never ignores Armor saves. This is specific to this HoW attack and I think would apply here.

gloomfang. Shrikes would reroll with TS, etc..

[coredump]

All of the warrior CC attacks are AP-, it doesn't matter if it is HoW or not. But the warrior has a special rule that allows all of its CC attacks to also ignore armor.

[ragnarok]

I would play it that biomorphs and bioweapons do not affect HoW.

It is suppose to represent being smashed off of your feet by the impact of a big/fast moving charging enemy.

You could argue that the charger would hit with their weapon (thus boneswords ignoring armour and rerolls for toxin sacs), but then how is that different to an assault marine swinging his power weapon on the charge.

Part of the problem is we have different rules to every other rulebook. I assume that the main rulebook wasn’t written with this in consideration, the writers assumed that biomorphs are wargear. This is an easy mistake to make because they know what they want to mean, but it can get lost in writing.