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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 18:09:56 GMT
Something that I've noticed recently is that players are used to skipping rolls that, by the rules, they automatically pass. This isn't unreasonable, as the roll is a forgone conclusion. Why roll to hit when the hit is automatic?
However, some effects are concurrent with rolls that are otherwise forgone conclusions. Things like Perils of the Warp where Brotherhood Banners are concerned, and Blinding Venom where Hammer of Wrath attacks are concerned. The latter is a good example, in terms of clarity of structure, of what I mean:
A Hammer of Wrath attack hits automatically. Blinding Venom converts a hit result of 6 to an automatic wound. The problem essentially being that Blinding Venom converts results of to hit rolls where some suggest that no rolls should be made.
However, it seems to me that in cases such as the above, one dice roll is being made to negotiate two outcomes. After all, a Gargoyle rolling to hit an Imperial Guardsman has to roll 4+ to hit, and 6 to hit with an automatic conversion to wound.
So it seems clear to me that one outcome automatically obtaining does not negate the requirement to roll for the other outcome. We might as well say, where Blinding Venom is concerned, that hitting automatically is hitting on 1+ where 6 converts to a wound on 1+.
Again, the notion is that one roll has two independent outcomes, and where one outcome is a forgone conclusion, we must still roll for the other, at the same threshold.
I think this is clearer where the Perils of the Warp are concerned, because a psyker manifesting a power must take a psychic test, and regardless of whether the test is passed or not, the roll may also generate a Perils of the Warp result. A psyker can pass the test yet still suffer Perils of the Warp, so why would automatically passing the test negate the requirement to take the test
The Brotherhood Banner does not say anything about skipping the psychic test, just that the test is automatically passed, and since psychic tests have more results than just passing or failing, we have neither practical nor theoretical reasons for skipping it. Indeed, one might suggest, if it were relevant, that doing so gives the unit an undue advantage in avoiding Perils of the Warp.
But the advantage is irrelevant to (a) the rules of the game, and (b) implementing those rules.
What do you think? In the absence of rules specifying that Perils of the Warp and Blinding Venom are ignored, do you think that automatically obtaining one result should mean you don't get to roll for other results that might obtain from the same roll?
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Post by coredump on Jul 18, 2012 18:27:34 GMT
There is no requirement, in the rules, to roll the dice if you have already passed the test, or otherwise hit the target.
The same things happened with Gets Hot rolls and BLast weapons. Since you didn't roll 'to hit' Gets Hot never worked. So they made a specific rule to roll a die anyway for Gets Hot purposes.
They did *not* make a blanket rule for this, nor specific ones for Perils or Blinding Venom.
As has been shown to you by various people at this point: the rules require you to *pass* the psy test, it does not require you to take the test or roll the dice. Thus, if you have passed the test, there is no need, nor requirement, to roll dice.
The Perils rules say "If the dice are..." Since you never roll, the dice are never doubles....
Same with Blinding Venom, it says if the to hit roll is a 6... it never says you must take that roll... just 'IF'.... no roll, no 6, no blinding...
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 18:43:35 GMT
coredump:
Yes, I did write a few paragraphs there are about automatically passing one result where a dice was being rolled for that one result obviated the utility of rolling the dice.
However, there is no rule in the rulebook allowing you to do so; it is done out of practicality. Likewise there is no rule in the rulebook allowing you to skip a test where automatically passing one result did not entail passing any other results. Which is the point of contention.
Speaking of requirements, according to the rules on p.67, you are required to take a psychic test: "The Psyker must now take a Psychic test". I interpret this sentence as requiring a psyker to take a psychic test.
Psychic tests have four possible results: (1) Pass and Perils, (2) Pass and no Perils, (3) Fail and Perils, (4) Fail and Perils. The Brotherhood Banner says nothing about avoiding the test, just that a pass result automatically obtains, so that the unit taking the psychic test can now either (1) or (2).
The rulebook says to take the test, the Brotherbanner specifices 2/4 possible results, not that the requirement to take the test is negated.
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Post by fragile on Jul 18, 2012 18:47:52 GMT
Why did we start a new thread on this ?
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 18:50:48 GMT
And Core leaps immediately to the attack! It's an interesting question; it's funny to see the assumptions GW playtesters are unaware they make - if they'd thought about it, they would certainly have included it in the rules. Personally, between the example of 'Gets hot' weapons and the casual tone of GW design, I strongly suspect that for GW, 'automatic' is intended to mean 'no dice are rolled'. Absent authoritative evidence and in line with local tradition, I will continue to not roll in these situations, and expect the same of my opponents. However: It's a good point, since there are a ton of rules situations that are impacted, and there is no explicit rules saying you *shouldn't* roll anyhow. Depending on what the assumptions are in your metagame, I'd say it's best to talk it over with an opponent before the game, just to establish a baseline. I don't know what the average meta looks like, so I couldn't say if this is a widely disputed point or not. Or hell, if people even think about it  |
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 18:56:23 GMT
Why did we start a new thread on this ? Because it's a bigger question than just SITW and psykers. Rolls to attack, wound, and save all have abilities that can trigger depending on die results. If you have a rule that indicates automatic success or failure (and there are many), those abilities may or may not still have a chance of applying to the situation. Case already in point: Hammer of Wrath with Gargoyle's offensive venom ability. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 18:58:21 GMT
maeloke:
Yes, I believe it can be assumed that the discussion is about the rules, rather than about how reasonable people would resolve instances of application.
I used to wonder about the style of writing used in Warhammer 40,000 rulebooks, especially since it uses so few best practices in technical writing, but recently it came to me (mainly from using other, similar products), that maybe I was making too many presumptions about the specs. For example, I think we over-estimate the cost-value proposition of writing the rules like a proper manual, rather than a book one might sit down and read for fun (whatever those are called).
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 18, 2012 19:20:48 GMT
I know it is abstract, but this scenario is covered in the WHFB beastmen Faq.
Beastmen can take a LD test to gain hatred each round of combat. On a pass of double 1 they also gain frenzy.
They have a banner that lets them pass automatically. It is asked in the faq if they can roll anyway, to try for a double 1.
The answer is no.
Fantasy also has the 'no automatic owner's rule where no rolls of 1+ always work. A 1 always fails armour saves, even if you had a natural 0+ from stacked bonuses.
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Post by biomassbob on Jul 18, 2012 19:29:17 GMT
I would agree with that Jabberwocky and Coredumps points. If GW writes it in a FAQ/errata than fine but with the rules as they are there is no need to roll for perils in the brotherhood banner example.
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:30:38 GMT
Jabberwocky:
It's not really relevant, unfortunately. Thought since you bring it up, Warhammer 40,000 6th edition has an "Automatic Pass and Fail" rule for characteristic tests, and an "Automatic Pass" rule for Leadership tests, an automatic miss rule for rolling to hit (p.13), a maximum save rule (p.19), and so on. They all presume a certain result on a D6 either passes, or fails, rather than presuming that automatic passing or failing negate the need to roll.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 18, 2012 19:41:16 GMT
It's more relevant than inferring what GW 'mean't' by their rules. Especially now that a lot of fantasy rules have been carried over to 40k. Fear, Hatred, etc.
Also as I posted in the other thread, there are cases where no roll is needed, such as Eldar Warlocks using witchfires. Destructor is specifically listed as a psychic shooting attack/witchfire, yet it doesn't roll a psychic test. The power is always available.
It therefore breaks the logic that the 'manifesting psychic powers' order of procedures is absolute.
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 19:46:39 GMT
Jabberwocky:
I don't think there's much of an inference to presuming that "Take Psychic Test" means 'take a psychic test'. My argument is that the Brotherhood Banner doesn't say that the unit doesn't take a psychic test, like the Eldar Warlocks apparently do not. Thank you for bringing up an example where the rules (FAQ in this case) specify when a psychic test is not necessary, as opposed to merely saying that the psychic test is automatically passed. It's an interesting contrast.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 18, 2012 20:17:28 GMT
I think one of the big assumptions informing the side of this discussion voting *against* the die rolls is the general use of risk vs. reward in the game.
In 40k, abilities and mechanics are designed to have a use risk, either of failure or worse. A striking gargoyle has the chance of missing, a psyker risks failure in order to activate a power, etc.. At its heart, the game (along with most fun games) teaches this formula: Assumed risk = Chance of reward.
‘Automatic’ abilities reduce that equation to : Reward. They’re breaking the implied rules by allowing success automatically, and while we’re certainly happy to have units we can count on, it disagrees with the embedded logic of the game to continue granting rewards normally based on risk. To wit: gargoyles automatically hitting have *already* cheated, so why would they get a chance to automatically wound, too?
On the flip side, the notion of automatic success comes embedded with the idea that one is exempt from the risks of failure, i.e. that stupid banner and Perils.
I’m aware this is pure rhetoric, but given how GW writes their rulebooks, that may be the most appropriate way to consider the rules. At the very least, it does seem in line with the other rulings they’ve made.
Bleh. Really wish they'd get with the times and have open playtesting, so we could slam them with these issues before it goes to print.
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Post by coredump on Jul 18, 2012 20:59:00 GMT
Incorrect. The *summary* of the rules uses that as shorthand. The *actual* rules on p67 clearly states you need to "pass" the test. No inherrent requirement to take to test, nor roll the dice.
Also incorrect. A minor, but important disctinction.
There are only 2 results from a psy test; you either pass the test or you fail the test.
Other things trigger off of that roll, but that isn't a direct result of the test. If there was some "Psy/Perils test" then you would have to roll even if you autopass one or the other. But there isn't, there is only a Psy test. There is no requirement, anywhere, to take a "perils" test.
Of course not. Rules tell you what you can, and may do; you are asking to prove a negative.
First you need to provide a rule that says you need to roll the dice, even if the test is passed.
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 18, 2012 21:21:47 GMT
coredump:
Nope, correct. That quote is not a summary, it is a step in a procedure. The actual rule states that you are required to take the Psychic Test.
Likewise: "If the roll for the Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 (whether the test was passed or not)..."
So yes, we have rules telling us what is required to manifest a psychic power, both the requirements to manifest, and the effects of manifesting. Which is why you can't find rules contradicting them. Because I keep providing the rule that you need to roll the dice, and that Perils of the Warp may happen whether you pass the test or not. I'm at a loss of what else to say.
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