Double FoC at 2000 points?

[Space is pretty big]

Um... why?


No seriously I don't get GWs logic on this one. I am here, writing to you fellow 'nids, asking the questions: what were they thinking?


It seems like a decent idea, having a scaleable FoC after a certain pont size. Only, instead of finding a clever way to incorporate that good idea into the game, in a useful and intelligent manner, they just slapped on a second FoC, and sat back with crossed fingers.

Do they hate the tournament players? Sure we complain the most, but ya know... they might think of doing less for us to complain about. Ease our burden of complaint topics.... ration us a bit.

Sure, there will always be complainers, but there's a difference between people nit picking irrelevant mistakes in fluff, to people exposing major flaws in game mechanics...

And, people might wonder why I say things like "we're boned" when reading that interview with Kelly and Ward about 'nids.
Again and again, the ideas these guys have are more than sound... it's their execution that falls flat.

Pyrovore was a great idea... Clever in concept...

It's like they got caught up in the gimmick, and forgot the whole idea behind it; expanding unit slots to allow for larger games.

Every single tournament that I've bothered to check up on is now doing 1999 point games instead of 2000 point games.

When the entire infrastructure of the players base, universally avoids the use of a rule set.... thats suppose to add to the game.... then perhaps... just maybe... that rule set was poorly thought out?


Don't get me wrong, in everyday games it's entirely innocuous.
Thing is, as i've said many times before, you can have the rules be very strict and tournament friendly, and that will NEVER get in the way of 5 guys wanting to get drunk in their basement, and just randomly shooting at each other.

Doesn't work the other direction.

So I ask, with snark, and plenty annoyed; but with utter sincerity: Why?

Why do you think they did it?

[swarm492]

Marketing, 2k point games have been played for years and years with success with only 1 foc. but with 2 that other unit of whatever you always wished you could use but never had room for well now you can, so go buy it. Its like the allies system, fluffy, interesting, and a sound marketing choice. No ones buying your over priced terrian gw? make rules for it and have it deployable. I do think its important to point out that none of it harmed the game imo, tourn's have always ran by preset internal rules for the event so if they want to limit the foc then w/e. I understand why they would to because its that enviornment you really see the tricked out maxed lists and its a good way to keep things under control. For the average gamer atleast all I have talked to they love the idea, it provides me 3 additional elite slots which in the practice lists I have made I always seem to use 5 out of or all 6 slots.

In the end I think they were thinking how can we sell more, the development team might of had their own ideas but gw has a whole, that was the thought of the day.

Swarm492 - Swear filter evasion and brutalizing the English language. Please don't do this. Thank you

[Rakuall]

To sell models.
They likely hoped that tourneys would remain at the 2k level, and Nid players would need 9 more thropes and 5 more tervies, wolves would need 3 more boxes of long fangs, d-eldar would need 3 more of whatever cheese they run, etc. GW is a model company, they make models then rules to sell them, not games then models to play them with.

[maeloke]

I'm not sure I understand your stance.

1. Double FOC is now allowed in core rules once games get big enough.
2. Some TOs have revised their point limits for games with one point limit (2000) to a lower limit (1999).
3. Tournament play is now identical to how it was previously, minus one point.

Some armies simply can't fill 3k points with a single FOC, so it's now RAW that they can expand. That's nice for everyone, including tourney players. Any time you can refer to a book instead of an FAQ or houserule is a good change.

Now, tourneys are modifying 2k games because armies built for competitive play already tend to the abusive, and doubling the FOC opens floodgates for new shenanigans.

So... what's the problem? Your 2k tournament games are now the same as they ever were, minus one point, and everyone else now has fallback rules for their casual 4k bashfests.

[swarm492]

^ what I said

[gloomfang]

Where I am we are only doing 1999+1pt for the next 2 months to get our feet under us in tourny play. Then they are bumping us up to 2250pts. Looks like we are going the WHFB route of bigger point games around here. The reason I am hearing that its going this way is that it actully cuts down on spam. With that many points and FoC slots it is much less likley that the current "gimmick" lists will work. Everybody can take anti-whatever in thier army. If you really want to go big on one aspect your much more likely to run into an army that can deal with it.

[Space is pretty big]

In the end I think they were thinking how can we sell more, the development team might of had their own ideas but gw has a whole, that was the thought of the day.

This may sound weird but I very much accept that answer, and am a lot calmer for it.

I kinda think of it like this; if GW puts making money before making the game solid, it'll damage the game. If players continue to purchase the game, regardless of the reduction in quality, then from GWs perspective their approach has been validated.

That kinda craven business approach I respect, and I also don't hate it, because I see it as entirely the fault of the consumer for supporting those business practices.

Mind you, it's another matter for vital things like healthcare, food, and transport.

But honestly? If GW continues to distort the game to make money, and it works? Well, really?... Good for them!

[coredump]

As I understand it, in the UK they tend to play somewhat smaller games then we do here. So to them, 2K is a lot of points. They already recommended using Apoc for anything at 2500+, so this kinda falls in line with that. Supposedly, the design of the game is in the 1500-2000 range, so once you get to 2K, go have some fun with it....

I am used to 2K around here, so would have preferred the extra FoC at 2001+; but switching to 1999 isn't much of a big deal.


Gloomfang, let us know how that works out for you guys, I am pretty sure there are all sorts of good ways to spam things at 2 FOC and 2250 pts.....

[gloomfang]

Jul 16, 2012 18:45:19 GMT coredump said:

Gloomfang, let us know how that works out for you guys, I am pretty sure there are all sorts of good ways to spam things at 2 FOC and 2250 pts.....

In freindly games getting ready to play at that level we are seeing parsing, not spamming. It is intresting. For example: We used to see 3xHG, 3xHG, 3XZoan in a pod as a standard build. Now we are seeing 2xHG, 2xHG, 2xHG, 2xZoan in pod, 2xZoan in a pod and either DoM or Deathleaper. Techinicaly its only 1 more Zoan then before and the DoM or DL are not really spam. Same again with seeing more small stealer broods. Not that many more stealers on the table, maybe 2-3 more broodlords. Again nothing game breaking. The FA and HS slots we never maxed out before, but we are starting to see at this point levels someone taking shirkes, biovores or raveners who have never taken them before.
And a lot of fortifications starting to pop up from home table terrain. Mostly bastions with quad-guns.

[coredump]

Right, but those were not OP lists to begin with. And you really don't need that many HGuard anymore.

But compare to 6 Long fang squads
or 6 Valk/vend without squadrons

Plus, it makes it much easier to get abusive with Allies with the extra points.

[gloomfang]

Jul 16, 2012 19:11:52 GMT coredump said:

Right, but those were not OP lists to begin with. And you really don't need that many HGuard anymore.

Plus, it makes it much easier to get abusive with Allies with the extra points.

Right now we are to close to the edge to judge. People are just remixing the toys they already have and not getting to many new ones. I have seen one IG spam flyer list from a guy who has that Elysian Drop Army from IA. It's not working as well as he thought though. People can't kill that many flyers, but he is having trouble securing objectives. I haven't played him yet though.

As for allies, not a whole lot of movement. I see some Eldat/Tau mixes and a few GK/SW hybrids. Nothing has made people go "OMG they should ban Allies!" I have my first big tourny on Sat and I will take notes and see what people are doing with allies at 1999pts.

[Psychichobo]

Thing is, I see Allies as far more abusive than the extra FOC. The extra FOC has allowed many players to emerge as (please do not swear) by spamming though, I've already heard tales of 3 hammerheads and 3 lots of broadsides in one list. Regardless of whether it's effective or not it's still indicative that that player wants to try and abuse the game somehow for a list that's quite clearly not for entertainment purposes.

Allies just throws army balance out of the window.

[N.I.B.]

My knee jerk reaction was 'of course we must drop to 1999 points and single FOC like in 5th ed'. But we haven't actually given the rules a chance. I think the further you go from 2000 points and up, the more balanced double FOC will become. Unfortunately the games become unwieldy and take too long time to fit inside a tournament.

I found this article interesting, where Sir Bisquit laments the immediate drop of double FOC. He has a point, imo. www.3plusplus.net/2012/07/thought-about-learning-6th-and-feast-of.html

[gloomfang]

Jul 16, 2012 20:12:25 GMT Psychichobo said:

Thing is, I see Allies as far more abusive than the extra FOC. The extra FOC has allowed many players to emerge as (please do not swear) by spamming though, I've already heard tales of 3 hammerheads and 3 lots of broadsides in one list. Regardless of whether it's effective or not it's still indicative that that player wants to try and abuse the game somehow for a list that's quite clearly not for entertainment purposes.

Allies just throws army balance out of the window.

Please let me get a list like that to play against in my games. I would totally shread it in 3 turns. People are still in the "Tanks are the best" mindset. Might still work for SME or IQE who still mech up. Against Nids not so much.

[Davor]

I have alot of respect for you Space. I am surprised at you Space. I never took you as a complainer or whiner. I had to do a double take to make sure you wrote it. For someone saying that there will always be a complainer, that is what you are doing now.

Let's look at it this way. Why is it GW fault? If tournies are 1999, isn't that the fault of the tournament organzier? How is that GW fault that the T.O. is puting a cap at 1999? Like how come Tournies HAVE to be 1 FOC? Why not 2 FOC? For something that isn't even tried yet, and just going buy "guessing" to me that is foolishness and is no way GW fault. So to me it's the T.O. or the tourney scene that is acting like cry babies. Come on guys suck it up.

Another point is, GW said they don't really care for the tourney scene. It's only what 5 or 10% of GW customer base? So why do the other 90% have to suffer because of the 10%?

Also is it really that big of a deal? I mean, if I am reading your thread correctly, you only want one FOC. So is it really that much big of a deal over ONE POINT? 1999 or 2000? What is the big deal. I haven't really seen an explanation why it's such a big deal. Too me this is making a mountian over a mole hole.

Why did GW do this? My guess is to make extra sales as was said. Nothing wrong in that. GW is a buissness after all.

Another thing is, doesn't alot of complaints on TTH and other forums complain that for Tyranids the Elite spot is so tight? Now when playing 2000 points or more, you can have 6 Elites now. I am shocked to see you complain about having more Elite choices. Again, I had to do a double take to see it was you who was posting this.

TL;DR It's not GW fault, its the Tourney and Tournement Oragainzers fault for doing 1999 point games.