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Post by commandersasha on Jul 16, 2012 6:34:43 GMT
Interesting discussion! (Fluff-wise, it's irrelevant to me: my Counts-As-Tervigon is a wagon with lots of armed rats jumping off it!)
Game-wise, what Psychic chart are you guys going for? Biomancy seems good, but are the others useful? Do you buy Catalyst and Onslaught to max out on 3 powers, or just go for one or two?
I've only had 1 game under 6th; in 5th I always had her as a troop, with 10-20 Devilgaunts, and a Hive Tyrant elsewhere; Terv tended to stay backfield, spawning objective holders and screens.
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Post by infornography on Jul 16, 2012 6:50:54 GMT
For Tervi, definitely biomancy. Most of the powers in that set are good for her.
For swarmy, any of the three or even a combination of them is good. Though I'd probably say telepathy is the best for him since he is our only mastery 2 caster and both the mastery 2 powers are really good in that set.
For a regular tyrant, probably either TK or biomancy TK is a gamble, but there are some useful powers in that set, Biomancy is not at all a gamble, but the choice comes down to what role you see him taking.
I personally think, if you are going biomancy on a tervigon, you are fine with 2 powers. You can only cast one a turn no matter how many you take and there is only one power in biomancy that really sucks.
Currently, at least until more FAQs come out to clarify some issues, I wouldn't trade out powers on either zoanthropes or broodlords.
Though I think old doomy does very well with the biomancy roll. A couple of those results will help with his survival issues and one of them in particular will make him almost unkillable.
My opinions so far. They are subject to change with new information and FAQ releases.
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Post by Xantige on Jul 16, 2012 16:31:56 GMT
i've always loved tervigons. they are shes not hes. all tryranid are girls actually.  Well I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so. Now, a cc-focused tervigon variant that spit out hormagaunts... *that* is something I would run. I'd still sculpt my own, though. This. Though it just doesn't seem fitting for Hormagaunts to spew out of the bloated belly of some lumbering beast. I rather see them somehow spilling forth from a faster, CC focused monster. How that would work, I don't know. I can't help but wonder if the concept of a Horvigon might be to over powered... If that is your view of how Tervigons are played no wonder you hate them. What I have had a lot of success with in 5th ed and my one game of 6th so far is that the Tervigons are my front line. As they move across the field my Flyrant comes in from reserve, my Trygon pops out of the ground, my ymgarls come out of hiding, and my swarmlord heads up the other side of the field. My opponent is kept off his footing by pure target saturation and can't afford to focus down the still very durable tervigons. Meanwhile they are spawning out swarms of termagants who make a break for the nearest objective. Anything that gets in melee range of the tervis gets smashed into oblivion unless it is a particularly tough unit, in which case it will still cost them dearly. The Swarmlord unit aims to take down the enemy's hardest nut to crack. Meanwhile assaulting a tervigon means facing a stinger swarm overwatch followed by a hammer of wrath attack probably on that unit's sergeant or leader because I called a challenge out. If the leader abstains, then I squish tons of weaker infantry with fewer power klaws/fists etc. If they accept then I squish their leader without much support of the rest of the unit. I think you underestimate how tough 6 wounds 6 toughness really is. Especially if you pull Iron Arm or Endure from the biomancy deck. Also 1d3+3 strength 10 attacks AP2 attacks? really really awesome. That will ID a Warboss. If you are hiding your tervigons in the back field, you are NOT using them right. They are a force to be reckoned with and should be one of your most valued front liners. Wow, Inforngraphy... just... wow... you deserve a slow applaud  . I was going to make a post on this thread, saying that I hadn't realized just how buffed the new rules made Tervigons, but that I was still on the fence about using them because I've always had this idea that they were backfield units. Now I think I'll have to rethink that. If they're CC beasts, I just might put them higher on my list of models to get. (PS, could I get that army list from you? A list that includes the Swarmlord, a Flyrant, a Trygon and a Tervigon is something I've wanted to see for ages!) |
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Post by infornography on Jul 16, 2012 17:02:26 GMT
This is my current 6th ed list.
1850 pts
Swarmlord
3 Tyrant Guard with bone swords
Flyrant with Devs, OA, and BS/LW
2 Tervigons with CC, AG, TS, Stinger Salvo, and Cat
2 units of basic termagants one at 10 models, the other at 11. These generally hold down any objectives in my starting area.
Trygon with toxin sacs
2 Biovores
10 Ymgarls
My 5th list didn't have the biovores, the trygon was a prime, and the flyrant had Hive Commander so that one of the Tervis could outflank. Since HC+Swarmy no longer both help in bringing in reserves, I dropped HC.
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Post by guns on Jul 16, 2012 18:58:14 GMT
Zephoid, you have some very strange ideas about Tyranid fluff, and a very esoteric (and, frankly, indefensible) definition of "efficiency".
Imagine a moment in a Tyranid planetary invasion in which the invaders need to take out an outpost that is controlling planetary defense systems. Let's say a part of this outpost's defenses is a grid of automated heavy stubbers. The Hive Fleet needs to send infantry-sized creatures into the installation to destroy the system. Now, is the Hive Fleet better off sending 1000 scuttling Termagants to take the position, with the expectation that 75% of them will be chewed up by the defenses, or sending 10 Tervigons to breech the defenses and unload Termagants right on the doorstep of the objective?
As mentioned earlier, Tervigons are basically biological armoured-troop carriers/infantry fighting vehicles. They keep troops protected from heavy weapons fire and deploy them in advantageous positions. The synapse role is there to make them and their troops self-sufficient operating systems, because without it they would need babysitting.
I haven't read the novels you mention, but you seem to be claiming that a signal node of the Hive Mind could theoretically govern an entire planetary strike force from orbit, if it wanted to... but that's not really the way synapse control has worked in any of the actual Tyranid codexes. Synapse is depicted as a top-down web spread out among the army by different creatures who have the ability to transmit it. So the purpose of Tervigon synapse is quite clear; they're meant to control, assist and support large troops formations.
It's wrong to assume that Tervigons are always at the front lines in the heaviest fighting. Let's not forget that there are plenty of "vat-spawned" Termagants to go around, and they don't only come from Tervigons. IF the Hive Mind needs bullet sponges it can send massive amounts of generic Termagants. If it needs to apply tactical control in a specific area it can send Tervigons.
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Post by maeloke on Jul 16, 2012 19:31:00 GMT
This. Though it just doesn't seem fitting for Hormagaunts to spew out of the bloated belly of some lumbering beast. I rather see them somehow spilling forth from a faster, CC focused monster. How that would work, I don't know. I can't help but wonder if the concept of a Horvigon might be to over powered... I imagine horvagons as a fast monstrous creature, with more sleek lines than a tyrant, and a full-out aggressive posture like the hormagaunts have. Instead of brood primogenitor, it would have "Brood Awakening", where it 'spawns' gaunts by reviving ones that were seeded and buried through previous 'nid action. As for being OP, that's just a matter of juggling numbers. Statline of a brood lord seems like a good starting point, though. Okay, I've convinced myself. Once Gen Con is past and I can focus on my swarm, I'm definitely going to start sculpting such a monster. |
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Post by Psychichobo on Jul 16, 2012 20:04:34 GMT
I suppose Tervs fit oddly into the fluff because in previous fluff there were always plenty of viable alternative explanations for gaunts getting to the front lines. That, and energy transferral was a big aspect of discussions about Nid fluff, and the Terv does create a lot of complications that way.
I think it's partly a personal thing and also partly dependent on what dex you started with. The previous dex portrayed Nids much more as animals, all part of a large hive unit, whereas the current fluff does push them a little too close towards operating like conventional armies. The Swarmlord fluff in particular is rather daft with regards to the old dex, and Deathleaper's fluff has been changed to work in the same way.
With the previous perspective of Tyranids, something like a Tervigon feels like either a waste of energy or a strange transport setup that doesn't seem necessary fluff wise.
Still, my Terv's happy stomping marine face, what do I care.
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Post by zephoid on Jul 16, 2012 20:11:36 GMT
Tervigons are not assault transports though. While they act that way in game, the eggs are not protected against fire. Flame is effective against gaunts and very effective against tervigons' eggs. Mines would also prove very effective. Bolter or las gun shots from the side would be able to do considerable damage and kill numerous eggs before they could be disgorged into a broken line, making it just as ineffective as the 1000 gaunt spam. You are simply stating that gaunts dont do everything: that is correct. The hive has variety of critters for that reason.
Breaching a fortified position you use genestealers or trygons with critters in the tunnels. gaunts are better used in jungle, urban, country, or suburban environment. They are wasted on attacking fortified positions. Thats where fexes, trygons, shrikes, harpies, raveners, and gargs are for, depending on the position. Once the position is breached, apply gaunts to overwhelm the positions.
1 synapse node could make a decision for as many creatures as were under its control, but the decision would be based on a very small amount of information and mental processing power and would not much better than instinct. The more synapse creatures in a synapse web, the stronger the intellect becomes until you have a hive mind. Thats how all hive minds work. Tyranids are slightly different as they have underlings that are not part of the synapse web, but are controlled. One synapse node could not control a whole force, as the simple act of controlling would take effort. 50 warriors, however, could do a good imitation of a hive tyrant's decision making ability(this would probably be different depending on how the warriors were spawned, based on the needs of the hive).
The job of "assisting synapse" was always given to warriors. They were the heavy infantry that governed the gaunts around them. Thats why you see both shrikes and walking warriors, as they are needed in both situation. Zoans could fill the role of synapse conduit, but were far more specialized in an artillery role.
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 16, 2012 20:26:12 GMT
How do you know that the Termagant embryos aren't protected?
Where are you getting this stuff about hive minds? Do you mean eusociality?
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Post by t⊗theark on Jul 16, 2012 22:48:48 GMT
I agree with Zephoid on the fluff. Thats why I hate the tervigon although it continues to grown on me as a strange transport. As Psychic Hobo (I think that's the name) has stated, those who got to know tyranids after 2nd and before 5th edition have found tyranids have become more like chittonous imperial guard.
Domination will probably end up being replaced by biomancy for supporting the little gribblies. I'm just looking at the 5 psychic areas an I think tyranids got the 2 best out of the 3 they got - Telepathy and Biomancy. As well as the 6" bubble of pretty nice you're firing off and augmentating your gants or just making what ever they're charging sitting ducks.
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Post by nocturnalreaper on Jul 17, 2012 8:19:23 GMT
IMHO Tyranids are the definition of adaptation. That is how we play. That is why we spam depending on the "meta" the situation. We adapt we create new to fit that task. You might not like that but to me its fluffy. Everything just depends on how you see it. I see everyone is mad that hormagaunts or genestealers aren't the main troop choice any more, so we just adapt take termigaunts and Tervigons. The other thing to remember is most games i think represent just a small battle not the whole war you keep saying 1000 termigaunts thats 5000 points just sayin. Not all battles would have Hive Tyrants only the massive ones would right.
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Post by amareis on Jul 30, 2012 14:33:29 GMT
I just don't see Tervigons being any good in an assault against Grey Knights.
You're facing a massive amount of Force weapons that will strike you dead before you even blink. Sure, they have to wound you on 6+ unless they can cast hammerhand and make it 5+. But they will get a 6+, and when you're I1, you don't get to strike back. Done deal. You get 1 I10 S5 AP- hit. That's it.
But I agree that Tervigons are durable, especially with help from Endurance or Iron Arm, if you get those.
I hadn't seen the Telepathy powers. WOW, they are awesome. Losing your life leech ability is hard, but you gain so much if you can de-buff your enemy into not doing anything - major advantage.
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Post by bloodborne on Jul 30, 2012 16:12:44 GMT
i've always loved tervigons. they are shes not hes. all tryranid are girls actually. Fluffy side-note: I think the Hive Tyrant is the only explicit exception. They are the same 'sub-species' as the Dominatrix, with Tyrants being a group of tiny males tending to/directed by a much larger female. Technically, the smaller 'nids are mix gender, at least the hormagaunts are confirmed in this, but if broods of termagants can survive generationally on worlds outside synapse range of the Hive mind(aka, worlds that have purged a hive fleet from their system successfully) I would think they would also be capable of breeding as well. |
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Post by roxor08 on Jul 30, 2012 16:16:23 GMT
I tend to give a rats behind about the fluff of a Tervigon...and it is now supposed to be a power unit, my gaming group has successfully been able to hammer them down. They are a priority within my gaming group and so therefore they usually don't make it far.
I still tend to field them in doubles, however, because of their force multiplier abilities, along with their ability to dish out FnP.
Given this was in 5ed and I haven't played a 6ed game yet...but I would imagine even more than before my gaming-mates will prioritize them even higher than a Flyrant or Trygon.
Just my thoughts...
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Post by swarm492 on Jul 30, 2012 16:32:37 GMT
That's interesting, mine rarely die and if they do they are not the first things to go.
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Well I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks so.
. I was going to make a post on this thread, saying that I hadn't realized just how buffed the new rules made Tervigons, but that I was still on the fence about using them because I've always had this idea that they were backfield units. Now I think I'll have to rethink that. If they're CC beasts, I just might put them higher on my list of models to get.
