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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 13, 2012 12:53:48 GMT
At this early point it seems that the pool of viable units in our codex has shrunk even further. All T4 units are worse than ever, and to the list of victims we can add Genestealers and Hormagaunts.
Tervigon/Termagants who were good are now better, Deathstar which was good is now better, Hive Guards who were good are now better, Trygons who were decent are now better. The only newcomer to the 'good' list seems to be the Flyrant.
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Post by gloomfang on Jul 13, 2012 15:32:56 GMT
At this early point it seems that the pool of viable units in our codex has shrunk even further. All T4 units are worse than ever, and to the list of victims we can add Genestealers and Hormagaunts. Tervigon/Termagants who were good are now better, Deathstar which was good is now better, Hive Guards who were good are now better, Trygons who were decent are now better. The only newcomer to the 'good' list seems to be the Flyrant. Roles have changed and load outs have changed, but I wouldn't say bad. From the games I have playied here are my veiws. 1) Hormagaunts are now just screens and pinning first wave units. Take them in big groups and keep them in synapse (forget the Feed rule, its to hard to get off.) They are one of the fastest units with bounding leap and fleet to make sure you get good rolls (run rolls are almost always a 6). I don't run them with TS or AG anymore becasue I want to keep them cheap and I have more than enough stuff that can kill AV10. 2) Ripper Swarms: No more fearless wounds and moving through cover make them able to act as a pinning unit as well. They are cheaper per wound and attack then gaunts, but the blast weakness still limits there usefullness. I usually deploy them where terrain is the heaviest and LOS to them is limited. They tend to get attract blast weapons that would otherwise kill my masses gaunts. 3) Termigaunts: I no longer put anything on them and only buy devgaunts. Tend to use them to hold objectives. Spawned gaunts are also used to pin units. 4a) Genestealers: Now not a vanguard unit like they used to be. I hold them back until a pinning unit has tied someone down and then charge in for the kill. Still a very killy unit and I still take TS to increase the chances of rending. Now able to realiably kill transports. I keep the units small as it is easer to get cover and I can take more broods so I can take more... 4b) Broodlords: Now a definite take. With the ability to take 2 powers and issue challanges. Take them with Scytal, TS and IA. Increased hits and increased chance of rending/ID. 5) Shrikes: Boneswords are now better than any power weapon or force weapon in the game. Debating swaping mine out for BS/LW. I used to run them with rending to make sure they could kill light armor, but now I just use scytal as glancing is good enough. Still fragile and the lack of an char (I tried PoM and it was overpriced) means that big stompy CC monsters are still an issue. I don't charge a unit until it is pinned as I only have 4 of them and a few lucky S8 overwatch shots will kill half the unit. 6) Swarmlord: Biggest advantige I have seen with him is speed. All of his powers used to be shooting so it was shoot or run. Now you can still use his 2 powers and still run him as long as they are blessings or maladictions. Sucks when he gets tarpitted by a cheap IC for a few turns. 7) Tervigon: My new carnifax with psychic powers. I need a second one. These are the units I have played with so far. If I try more I'll let you all know what I think. |
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Post by nurglitch on Jul 13, 2012 15:59:30 GMT
Just a couple of comments:
1. Units aren't pinned in close combat, they are locked. Important when rolling for Instinctive Behaviour, as units locked in combat do not roll for Instinctive Behaviour (and hence don't suffer Mindless rules). Using proper terminology in the rules also helps put people on the same page regarding the rules.
2. The lack of Stealth and the ability to go to ground seriously changes them, but Rippers have always been a cheaper screening unit that Termagants. Remember that they don't suffer Mindless wounds when locked in combat, or arriving from reserve.
3. "Termagants". Use the proper spelling and even noobs will be able to bask in your wisdom.
4. Honesty it's kind of weird how 6th edition is giving people my experience of 5th edition game-play (minus the Tervigon, obviously). Genestealers have always been expensive units, particularly with Toxin Sacs.
5. Units that have gone to ground (pinning merely forces a unit to go to ground) can still execute Overwatch. Their speed makes them good at mopping stuff up though,
6. Use Onslaught to run and shoot.
7. I expect the Tervigon bandwagon will run into Runic Weapons and Runes of Warding proliferation pretty quickly, particularly since these things are so effective against Grey Knights and other psychic heavy armies.
It's also kind of interesting to see the gushing about a Tervigon with Crushing Claws smashing stuff. At 4-6 attacks on the charge they're not really comparable to a Carnifex with Crushing Claws that doesn't use Smash, giving it 6-8 attacks on the charge, as well as a S9 Hammer of Wrath attack. Back in 5th they would still be wounding most targets on a 2+ if they had an Adrenal Gland.
I suppose it's the psychic powers that have changed things, but given the utility of the Tervigon psychic powers, I'm not sure why people are trading them in. Dominion, for example, seems like it would be really handy for taking advantage of the change in the Rage rule.
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Post by jocke01 on Jul 13, 2012 18:10:43 GMT
I have only played 3 games so far but will proably get a couple of more done this weekend. In general 1. New missons and victory points is great improvement for more varied standard missions and forcing people to make more balance lists or risk getting a disadvantage in sertain missions. 2. Vehicles goes down way faster (especially transports/light vehicles) and necron armies is the bane of all mech lists. This will force people to use transports for transporting units instead of a line of bunkers. 3. Random assault ranges is a bit silly, depending on the unit you shouldn't try assault moves over 5 inches if you don't have a hard unit or fleet. And having a C'tan make a 2 assault moves at a guard squad 3 away is just stubid, rare but stubid. 4. Overwatch is IMO a bit annoying since you don't need to give up anything to use it so buy default shooting units is better than units with no shooting capability. It's not to bad on small squads but when need alot of bodies to assault huge squads of shooting units. Tyranid side. 1. New nigh fighting rules and coves rules makes our units and especially MC's safer while advancing on the board. 2. Flyrant has for me been quite underwhelming I used him in 2 games and has so far acted like a 250+ unit that kills a vehicle or 2 if you are lucky. Cuould have just been my unlucky day but he didn't live past turn 2 either game and overwatching plasma guns is just BS. Paroxym got denied by a lucky six as well  . 3. gaunts (all kinds gargs/horma) have a hard time making assault moves (especially against 15+ units of necrons). Being T3 and 6+ save means overwatch can really hurt their assault range like the random stuff wasn't enough, again could be bad luck but failed each assault move with gaunts in my 2 games. 4. Tervigon with biomancy is awesome but a bit random I lucked out and go iron arm 3/4 times, having you opponents krak missiles wound you on a 5+ is just funny. 5. Flyers is going to be a problem for nids. 6. I think more Mc's and devilgaunts will appear in my lists. Ork side 1. Dakkajets and I would assume alla flyers is really good atm before new codexes includes more skyfire. That's why I'm a bit worried for nids cause my dakka jets was having a good old time making strafing runs and blowing up vehivles left and righ and pinning footsloggers and barely got hit. 2. Units in transports have a easier time getting those assaults in. 3. huge shoota mobs with overwatch is just fun, killing the fiery form deamon prince before he even get's to strike. That's why I think huge devilgaunt broods will be fun as long as you give them feel no pain and keep them in cover vill make them a nasty unit to attack. 4. S6-7 stuff can take on anything but AV14 with ease. Check thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Tactics&action=display&thread=39295 for more. |
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Post by angeleania on Jul 13, 2012 21:30:15 GMT
Played a couple games, first i tried.
Flyrant 2 tl devs swapped powers
2 tervigons
2 5 man squads with broodlord
gaunts
3 HG
2x 2 zoans swapped powers
doom
2 trygons primes
3 biovores.
Flyrant, benifits from area terrain if stops over it, even though not suffering difficult terains tests. Actualy easy to get 25% cover for most of the game. Plan your attack runs. get him over the board with some cover and turning to the center. Enermy vendettas come in, i was able to fly behind one and force it to dive away. 12 re-rolls to hit str 6 if get behind them, you have a chance.
Remember Nids are all about all the army working together, if the enermy goes after the flyrant, he not shooting the others
I had so many powers it was too confusing. I lost both broodlords and 2 zoans to str 10 pie plates before i could silence the rockets. So watch your positioning. and the cant see cant kill, does not work against pie plates. cover taken from the center hole not the firer.
Biovores Win. They are barrage, stick at back in cover or hide and fire, lots of troops now on the board. MVP on both games.
Trygons, give them fell no pain or endurance, and away they go, easy to get cover. remember too, the type of terrain giving the cover decides, fortifications love the 3+ followed by 5+ FNP,
win.
Hive guard still win. even fliers, ok, snap shot, but if you do get a 6, then thats when they choose to dive, then you roll to penetrate. They dive and then the flyer is snap shooting only.
With just two vendetta's it was hard to position get a few more and they could run into problems.
Game two against what was meant to be a real heavy win list, CSM all nurgle, with typhus and deamon allies, Epideamus. All T5 lots marines and 6 oblitorators. everything with FNP bar his terminators
had luck with the oblitorators, lost os misses and those that did i saved a fair few, only accounted for a few wounds. reposition the HG so the wounded one is now at the back and you can play the allocation games.
I dropped the brood lords, and 2 zoans, took 3 more HG basic trygons with TS. took another unit of 3 biovores (2000pt games hence the double FOC)
Again Biovores did great. got 3 enfeeble, both tervigons and flyrant. This is a winner, one combat i dropped typhus and marines to S and T to 3, two trygons muched them, reroll hi and reroll wounds (TS)
For one of the first hard lists to hit the net, it failed. Called it turn 4, 2/3s his force gone including typhus terminators and he had only 1 kill point.
Endurance and Enfeeble are great, Zoans were relagated to just support at the back. Flyrant was wounded and grounded but lived to fly again next turn. (carries on as normal next turn)
MC's dont worry much about overwatch.
Sorry for long post
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Post by angeleania on Jul 13, 2012 21:36:14 GMT
Other notes,
remember the secondary objectives. In kill poitn game, get the scoring unit over the board, thats a point. Kill the warlord thats a point, easy to forget these.
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Post by Illithid on Jul 13, 2012 23:47:34 GMT
It's also kind of interesting to see the gushing about a Tervigon with Crushing Claws smashing stuff. At 4-6 attacks on the charge they're not really comparable to a Carnifex with Crushing Claws that doesn't use Smash, giving it 6-8 attacks on the charge, as well as a S9 Hammer of Wrath attack. Back in 5th they would still be wounding most targets on a 2+ if they had an Adrenal Gland. I suppose it's the psychic powers that have changed things, but given the utility of the Tervigon psychic powers, I'm not sure why people are trading them in. Dominion, for example, seems like it would be really handy for taking advantage of the change in the Rage rule. Have you played the Tervigon before actually making a statement about wondering how it compares to the Carnifex? Have you tried the new Psychic powers with it? In 5th Ed. I was not a fan, now it seems brutal. To compare, for 50pts more, you are getting: 1) Something with two more wounds 2) A strength 6-8 MC (who can Smash) - with Iron Arm 3) A Toughness 7-9 MC (seeing Krak etc fail to wound 50% of the time or higher if T9) - with Iron Arm 4) Lower the enemies Str/Tough by 1 if within 24" 5) Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die - with Endurance to either itself or other MC's 6) A way to regenerate it own wounds and kill terminators with Life Leech 7) The ability to spawn termagants to hold objectives, tie down enemy units with a 6" Spawn, 6" Move and a 2d6 Charge 8) Has the same save 9) With Crushing Claws and Warp Speed, the potential of 10 attacks on an assault or 6 with Smash + HoW 10) Can challenge you opponents Characters It is easy to look upon something and not understand what the fuss is about without actually trialling the said model. |
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Post by insanious on Jul 14, 2012 0:39:47 GMT
9) With Crushing Claws and Warp Speed, the potential of 10 attacks on an assault or 6 with Smash + HoW You're a little wrong here its: Tervigon Smashing is 1 HoW (Charge) + (3/2) + 1 (charge) + D3 (Crushing Claws) + D3 (Warp Speed) Max is: 1 S5 Ap- I10 HoW attack + 5 - 9 S10 AP2 I1 Attacks Smash alters the models attacks in its stat line (3/2) = 1.5 round up to 2. Not total attacks, so Charge + Crushing Claws + Warp Speed modify after smash is declared. |
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Post by angeleania on Jul 14, 2012 1:36:10 GMT
Hate to rain on this but, other factors you can add to this.
Possible 50% failure from Eldar or Runic weapons.
Fail if roll 11 or 12+. again using 3d6
50% failure to get the spells you want. 3 of 6 are not what you want.
cast but roll 1 for each power, so its not so hot ST 6 T7 att +1
So as in everything, edge your bets but make sure your army is well rounded. no eggs in only one basket.
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Post by rippertotheface on Jul 14, 2012 3:18:10 GMT
I had a lovely game against Chaos Space Marines last Sunday, and by lovely I mean that it was a massacre on my part. It was about 500 points (It was the first part of a planetary empires campaign) I am not sure what he was running but I went.
Tervigon
-AG
-TS
-Crushing Claws
-Catalyst
Hive Guard
Venomthrope
Warrior x 3
-AG
-Deathspitter
-Mycetic Spore
Termagants x 23
I know he had about 10 Khorne Berserkers and 10 regular marines with a plasma gun and an icon (I think it was an icon) along with a Lord in termi armor with Lightning Claws.
I rolled for my Character trait and got the strategic thinggummiewhat that gives stealth in ruins, sadly we did not have any ruins. I don't remember what he gave his lord, but it didn't do much of anything. I rolled twice on Biomancy for the Tervigon, getting Endurance and Iron Arm.
I went first, deploying the tervigon as close to the enemy as possible, and I was fortunately hidden by a small hill, I put my Hive guard off in a corner, letting him take pot-shots at whatever strayed into range. The 'thrope was put a bit behind the tervigon, giving her cover. The gants went as close to the hill as possible, because there was an objective on top of it. The warriors stayed in the pod up in space.
He deployed, putting the lord in with the berserkers, and trying to position them as close to me as possible. The standard guys went and hid on another objective closeby.
My first turn starts, I kill four berserkers with cluster spines. The gants get on top of the hill, sitting there and waiting to shoot. The guard fires a shot an, lucky for him, he put a wound on the lord.
His turn starts, he moves the berserkers to try to get to the gants, but fails. The other guys sit on one of the objectives, and they fail to put a wound on the tervigon because of the spore cloud and her high toughness.
Turn 2 starts with me casting Iron Arm on the tervigon. The gants fire on the berserkers, they kill a few, and then they kill almost all of them in assault because of the AG and TS. I think that I charged my tervigon into the berserkers as well (that could have been my next turn) His turn starts, he cant do much and I kill everything except the lord in his assualty force.
Turn 3 begins. The warriors fail to arrive. The Guard starts lurking. The venomthrope moves to cover the guys that are camping on the objective in spores. I charge my Tervigon into the lord, promptly annihilating him while he allocates the wounds to the gants, killing four. During his turn he charges the tervigon after shooting, and putting a wound on, her She kills 3, forcing a moral check.
Turn 4 I finish killing the last of his guys, and he surrenders.
I am sure that we didn't use all of the rules, but I think it was a pretty good game still. I need to get myself a copy of the rulebook so that I can use all of the rules.
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Post by Illithid on Jul 14, 2012 3:40:20 GMT
Hate to rain on this but, other factors you can add to this. Possible 50% failure from Eldar or Runic weapons. Fail if roll 11 or 12+. again using 3d6 50% failure to get the spells you want. 3 of 6 are not what you want. cast but roll 1 for each power, so its not so hot ST 6 T7 att +1 So as in everything, edge your bets but make sure your army is well rounded. no eggs in only one basket. I understand this, but I am stating various reasons why the Tervigon can be more effective. I know that you will not get every possible power you want, hence why I have included 10 different reasons why it may be better and what the fuss is about. What I was pointing out is why the Tervigon is impressing people at the moment, over the Carnifex, that I still see as overpriced. |
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Post by killme304 on Jul 14, 2012 13:07:28 GMT
Being honest, I played against DE with Eldar allies bringing in runes, and while it was annoying, I only suffered it once or twice in the entire game, and that was with 8 psykers in it. Deny the witch got me more often.
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Post by dbgoldberg323 on Jul 14, 2012 20:58:55 GMT
Flyers are retarded to deal with for any army. Bugs need some Skyfire ASAP, since everyone else gets fortifications and can actually hit worth half a (please do not swear) with them. Contrary to popular belief, Tyrands can use Aegis Defense Lines perfectly fine... Gaunts out of synapse....absolutely amazing. With the much improved feed, i'm practically begging them to fail their ld test before a good charge. +2 attacks is wonderful for them. I bet they are amazing with +2 attacks on the charge, but they don't have IB - Feed, they have IB - Lurk, so they would actually have to run for cover upon failing IB. Hormagaunts on the other hand, do have IB - Feed (Rage).  Dominion, for example, seems like it would be really handy for taking advantage of the change in the Rage rule. How would it take advantage of Rage (IB - Feed)? Dominion EXTENDS your Synapse range from 12" to 18". That makes more units fall into Synapse range, which makes them fearless, and Nids that are in Synapse ignore Instinctive Behavior. I keep seeing Tyranid players who see the change to rage and think suddenly units with Instinctive Behavior - Feed are the bees knees. They're really not. First of all, you'll have to position the unit to be entirely out of Synapse. That means no Tyrant, Warriors, Zoanthropes, Shrike Broods, Tervigons, Trygon Primes, etc within 12" of them (or Swarm Lord or Tervigon with Dominion going on within 18"). It's not impossible but it will be difficult considering you'll have to plan for it (and terrain can make this harder). Then, you have to fail the Ld test when it's that unit's time to move. With a Ld of 6, you still have a 42% chance to pass. You may be able to fail their Ld test more often than not but it's not guaranteed and it certainly won't be reliable. This chance to fail gets drastically worse as you move to nastier units like Carnifexes (Ld 7) or the Trygon (Ld 8) who would definitely benefit from it. I don't know. I'm not sold on all the "ZOMG Nids are amazing now!" hype. I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of the false rumors that were out right before the rulebook dropped. Guidebot's signature pic makes my point entirely. Having played several games of 6th Edition myself with Nids, I can say that I'm unimpressed with Nids, and will probably be waiting until 2014 when our codex is released again. Here's my two cents, for those that care: - Flying Monstrous Creatures (Flyrants) are pretty fantastic. Give them Biomancy powers, Lash Whips, Bone Swords, and Twin-Linked Devourers, and they're amazing. I had my two flyrants running around a table of Orks picking up vehicles, Meganobz, etc, and then landing and assaulting. Best. 280. Points. Ever. - Hive Guard are better than they were in 5th. Since all you need to do is glance a vehicle 3-4 times (or glance 2-3 times and pen once) to "wreck" it, a lot of vehicles are fairly useless now. - Genestealers are tied for the worst unit in the book now with Venomthropes. Genestealers are supposed to be the fastest and sneakiest assault unit fluff-wise but if they find themselves moving through some shrubberies they'll suddenly be Initiative 1 like they were in 5th. Move Through Cover and Fleet do nothing to change this in 6th either. The reason they're worse now though is that they only get a 5+ cover save (like everyone else). Sorry, but that's just not good enough. Let's not even get started on the whole not being able to assault from outflanking or infiltrating... - Venomthropes are just terrible. In addition to losing the ability to grant Defensive Grenades to all units within 6" (only the Venomthrope gets this now), you now ONLY take the Dangerous Terrain test when charging units within 6", NOT Difficult Terrain (and thus making some units initiative 1). The FAQ yet again provides another nerfing to units that did not need it. - The elimination of "No Retreat wounds" from combat was a huge buff to the Tyranid army. We used to be able to tie things up that we didn't want to fight, and we can again (except that most units are a lot more killy in CC now). Gargoyles are only 6 points instead of a Termagant's 5, so they're still cheap and spammable and they're fast. With Blinding Venom and Toxin Sacs, they can kill the (please do not swear) out of Monstrous Creatures too. I wouldn't be surprised to see lots of Termagants or Gargs bogging down units in the tournament scene. - Bone Swords guys, Bone Swords. Yep, believe it or not they ignore ALL armor saves still like they did in 5th. They are not power weapons, and they have never been called power weapons. The FAQ does not make them power weapons, and it doesn't take their "ignore armor saves" wording away either. Tyrant Guard, Shrike Broods, Warriors, and Warrior Primes get HUGELY buffed by this (Tyrants are already AP2 thanks to the latent ability from Smash). I ran a unit of Shrikes behind some Gargs, and got them to charge some Meganobz and wow, they carved through the unit like butter like they should. If all power weapons are AP3 now but Bone Swords ignore armor altogether, then technically that's a buff. - If you have a Shell Tyrant (Shellrant?) and three Tyrant Guard, according to the Shield Wall FAQ the Tyrant can get Look Out Sir (LOS) saves. So, stick him in the front of the unit, and laugh as you spread wounds to your Tyrant Guard one at a time, never having to fully wound one to remove it. This isn't really all that amazing because the Tyrant Guard have two wounds each, but it means maybe having one of those 65 point models living a turn longer and getting to use its Lash Whip or Bone Sword. - Random Charges really hurt assault armies, and that rule is the final nail-in-the-coffin for our Assault units. I have yet to pull off a charge against a unit that is 6 or more inches away; I keep having to make sure my units are 3-4 inches away and I have even failed some of those charges. - Overall the inability to charge at initiative through terrain still hurts bad and hamstrings Nids into being a weird sort of half-shooty, half-monstrous creature-spam hybrid list. I don't see Nids being competitive or even good in friendly games considering the armies that were already good got a LOT better, and the armies that were bad got a LOT worse. I know this has to do mainly with the release of a new rules set, but since we're not due for another Codex until 2014, I might have to consider eBay or Barter Town. I can't say I've had fun with the army since January 2010 and that is really upsetting considering I have about 8,000 points of 'em. |
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Post by dakkathrope on Jul 15, 2012 1:27:34 GMT
Well, I just finished a 1000 pt 4 round tournament at my LGS and placed 2nd with the following list:
Tervigon w/ catalyst
DoM w/ mycetic spore
Deathleaper
Hive Guard x3
Warriors w/ Lash/bone and Deathspitters x5
Rippers x5
Gargoyles x 17
The only game I lost was against orks, and even then I should have been able to win it had I rolled "statistically" at a couple important points (I lost the Terv in one round of fire from lootas by failing 9 armor saves and 7 FNPs out of 11 wounds, and my hive guard to a dakkajet under waagh) Otherwise I handedly won every other round against Sisters, IG parking lot, and Dark angels.
Overall DoM was amazing. Every round he spored in next to troops, and absorbed rediculous amounts of fire while my terv and warriors marched up the field. I did have some problems with the 4T of a lot of my units but having a deathleaper come in and rend a tank while gargoyles glance a transport to death drew the fire away from my more vulnerable units. I always used my rippers to take overwatches and rarely lost more than one model. In the end the ork player took first because most of the other players were focusing too much on the dakkajets and letting the lootas shoot them up. (the only reason he beat me was because of first blood and he killed my warlord).
Things I would change:
1.Shrikes instead of warriors if i have the points, and w/ guns more capable of glancing front armor when neccesary.
2. higher toughness units. I lost all of my toughness 4s to an insta death shot at least once during the tournament so it might be wise to take less squishy units.
3. If I have the points it might be beneficial for me to put a scarier gun on the spore than just tentacles
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Post by turndamage on Jul 15, 2012 6:18:45 GMT
I can't tell you how amazing it was to have a gate of infinity tank-tyrant jumping around the board each turn. Necrons had nowhere to run. HT squad with the guards managed to jump to some lych guard (or whatever they were...the ones without the shields?) and devoured them easily. Then they jumped to behind the main force and harassed the necron warriors at the rear objective. Easy lunch. You deepstrike and are prone to scatter, then you can't charge in the same turn and I assume your Tyrant unit isn't very shooty. How is that working for you? well, lol, since the psychic power was randomized, it was the one that I got and the one that I used. My tyrant build included a heavy venom canon which by all means isn't that shooty, but it was still able to place a nice blast on some shocked warriors. No, I couldn't assault out of DS, but the scattering went fine during that game. As with all Deep Striking, it can be risky, but the rewards can be great. After all of that is said and done, deep striking close to an enemy unit with 3 of your TGuard baddies in formation and a 2+ armor save....that's all I'm saying....it was frightening. A lot of shots were soaked up by him. Also, just thought about something: with lictors on the field, my tyrant wouldn't have to scatter when using that power as long as he's within range of that pheromone trail. Huh. Interesting. |
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