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Post by voraciousapathy on Jul 29, 2012 19:38:58 GMT
A few things:
The Swarmlord + Guards + Prime combo is a good core, but it is no longer NEARLY as indestructible as it was in 5e -- cover saves are now 5+, and so is Feel No Pain, which means it has become less durable to Krak Missiles, more durable to lascannons and meltas, and less durable to (and here's the important one) Poisoned attacks which can bypass high toughness.
As poison is becoming very, very commonplace (i.e., basically everything the Dark Eldar shoot, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Termagants, Plague Bearers or Plague Marines w/ a high Tally from Epidemius, etc.), the Prime does much less than he used to for increasing durability to firepower, and is either best left at home, or put to use elsewhere (hanging with Zoanthropes or Warriors and abusing Look Out, Sir!, for instance).
This means the Swarmlord is now a Psychic Monster who is also super-awesome in CC. To say he "does nothing" until Turn 3 or 4 is even more of a mistake than it was in 5e -- very few things do much damage on Turn 1 in 6e -- Turn 2 is where the "magic" starts. While deployed 24'' deep (H&Anvil), anywhere in your Triangle of the board, or even 12'' deep on Turn 1 with standard deployment, a 6'' move and a run will put you in range to threaten almost everything on the board with a psychic power. Deny The Witch on a 6+ is meaningless -- as retarded and pathetic an attempt to save yourself as Going To Ground outside of cover to save yourself from a lascannon. The only thing it is better than is, literally, nothing.
So, moving past that, recognize that Librarians with Hoods can only help their squad, or a squad within 6'' of them, and unless they're Mastery 2 (not very many people seem to bother, considering Hoods really blow), they only Deny on a 5+ against Swarmlord. 4+ for Mastery 2, as they are equal to Swarmlord. This is all assuming you target something near the Psyker -- a 6'' radius is going to be pretty hard to maintain when transports start popping (and they will, as Rhinos are now garbage, and Land Raiders are expensive garbage).
Which brings me to my next point -- where are you going to hide, when the Swarmlord takes over your Land Raider, and shoots every weapon (including PoTMS!) at your other transports? And then your Zoanthropes do the same thing to the Land Raider? And then your other Zoanthropes do the same thing to the Land Raider? And pretty soon, the Land Raider has fired 18 Lascannon shots and de-mech'd the entire opponent's army? And then they shoot at you, and it does nothing, because you're made of Rocks combined with Endurance combined with Invisibility combined with Cover combined with Iron Arm combined with ...
It's stupid. Runes of Warding are annoying, but they cannot hope to surpass sheer volume -- the only thing doing damage to your army, once you reach critical psychic mass, WILL be Perils -- the opponent's army will be too busy killing themselves to worry about killing you.
My girlfriend played this thing against an 8 Flyer Necron Army, and Zoanthropes + Swarmy simply mind-controlled the airplanes and had them shoot eachother down. The whole army folded up and died around Turn 4.
What I'm trying to say is, no psychic defense in the -game- is capable of shutting down a 'Nid psyker force, except maybe Njal + Runes of Warding, which is incredibly uncommon. The powers -will- go through eventually, and every one that goes through is potentially crippling, not just "inconvenient". Your whole airforce shooting itself down is unrecoverable. Your Thunderhammer/Stormshield Terminators beating themselves to death is horrible. Having Fearless stripped away, before being auto-pinned? That's a death sentence for Nob Bikers, which are shaping up to be the new hotness in 6e.
Psykers rule, and we have the most. And all of our psykers are cheap and expendable, or else super-tough and nearly unkillable.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 29, 2012 21:10:47 GMT
I like your posts Voracious, it's always nice new fresh competitive information straight from the horses mouth  I presume you're mainly rolling on the Telepathy table then until you get Puppetmaster?  It says that Puppetmaster is only shooting attacks though so it would have no use on Assault Termies. I do like Iron Arm with my Hive Tyrant when you're lucky enough to get it. I had mine at Toughness 9, a bunch of GK Teminators being unable to wound him was quite amusing. Oh yeah and Objuration Mechanicum is my favourite one but again you need to be lucky to get it. But in most cases to be honest we have good anti-tank nowadays. But yeah having their own squads shoot themselves via Puppsetmaster is a nice new idea, there is still much to learn in this edition it seems Leeroy |
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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 29, 2012 21:22:01 GMT
It says that Puppetmaster is only shooting attacks though so it would have no use on Assault Termies. He meant Swarmlord cast Hallucination 5-6 on them. A shame Puppet Master is focused witchfire, would be great to see a full squad of Tesla Immortals torrent down their friends. And a cunning opponent can mitigate Puppet Master cast on for instance a Landraider to some degree, as most vehicles have a limited arc of fire (assuming we cannot pivot the possessed vehicle before we fire it). I haven't got around to try a 'Psychic Overload' build yet. Not sure what I think of it yet. Would probably do something like this Swarmlord 3 Tyrant Guards, whips (whips to cut down on the risk of Mindshackled Boneswords) Tervigon - 3 powers, Scything Talons 3 Zoanthropes 3 Zoanthropes 3 Zoanthropes 5 Genestealers + Broodlord with Scything Talons 5 Genestealers + Broodlord with Scything Talons 10 Termagants 10 Termagants Tervigon - AG, TS, 3 powers Tervigon - AG, TS, 3 powers 1994 points 15 psykers with 35 psychic powers between them. If Broodlords roll on Telepathy they are guaranteed at least one power they can use. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Jul 29, 2012 21:30:38 GMT
Hallucinate lets you force units to hit themselves, which will rip apart a lot of assault units.
One thing I am dubious of though VA; puppet master on flyers. Since you must snapshoot, you'll need 6s to hit them with puppet master, even if the flyer itself has skyfire. So with 3+ psykers casting it that's still only 1 landing a turn even with good luck.
I'm using telepathy too now and it does have great utility. I just hope terrify is erratad to strip ATSKNF as well as fearless.
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Post by reallysorry on Jul 29, 2012 21:35:51 GMT
He meant Swarmlord cast Hallucination 5-6 on them. No he did not because he mentioned his Zoanthropes + Swarmlord mind controlled the airplanes and had them shoot eachother down. And yes focused witchfire attacks vs flyers would need 6 to hit so vc your girlfriend must be really lucky! |
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Post by creep on Jul 29, 2012 21:57:24 GMT
I don't know where you have been
but flyers only are good as additional flexible frepower. To build a whole army just out of flyers will doom your army to loose. Especially with crons - a Dommscyte is nice, but 3 aren't. You can't afford loosing that much shooting in turn 1 if you fail to roll a 3+ in turn 2 as well. Cron troops in nightscytes are also not efficient in large numbers. 1-3 flyers is all you need as you pay for scroring troops inside and some of your firepower will arrive delayed.
I assume you knew anyway that the 8 Flyers list is garbage and crons can do way better.
You cannot protect everything you have with psychic powers, something behind the front lines will be an "easy" target. If you face a dumbass that shoots your "it will not die", Fnp, T9 MCs instead of something that hast just 5+ cover - congrats you knew you would win the moment he started making mistakes so where is the point?
I heard quite often how good AV 14 "is" now. Haven't faced a single Landraider or Monolith since. Thats because they are weaker than before. Melta(/bombs)and MCs wreck AV 14 as easy as before and even if its not destroyed it looses hullpoints.
Deny the wich in addition to psychic tests which already have a chance to fail is a huge nerf for offensive powers. its 16,6666 less survival psychic "shooting" if something as warp lance needs to hit as well then add it up to see how bad it is. 60 points for a warp lance that can fail the psychic test wicht a chance of 8-9%, is denied in 16,7% of the cases, then hits 66,7% and has to face 5+ cover nearly granted afterwards.
100x0,92x0,83x0,66x0,66 you know its math it doesn't lie and psychic defense makes it even worse. Maleficarum has a 75% chance to be succesfull add psychic defense and its half as much. BS 2-3 equivalent single hits that first have to be rolled on the "lore table" don't scare me, at all as a mech army player and don't impress me as a Tyranid player.
Don't get me wrong runes of warding and SW ghostblade don't need to annihilate my psychic abilities. They are for free as Runepriest and Prophet don't really pay points to have it. They are easily worth their points even if you have zero psykers in an opponents army. They just made you pay a few hundred points too much for stuff that fails to work thanks to their free defense. Same for Hoods they aren't impressive but they are for free.
Critical psychic mass makes this just a gamble.
If there is no defense you will smash it to pieces - nobrainer. If it is warded and he hides in a transport you are fu...ed.
What your whole list has to be able to is killing the guy that blocks you. Best Option are Tl Devs on a Tyrant because he can autokill + snipe as soon as your Hive guard wrecked the transport (Runepriest is tougher but a lucky enfeeble could help, if you have it you won't swap it anyway).
Thats seems unsatisfying to me.
I don't dislike a hard matchup but playing with scissors that cut myself until i fix them vs a rock is neither funny nor a challenge. I would prefer to concentrate on making my scissors harder to smash so that the stone breaks himself while trying.
Blessings rule indeed.
Where have you been? Necron flyerwing as a competitive list, poison beeing "common" (its just 2 armies both of them are Xenos...so I really disagree with you), argumenting with using 18 times the same power reliably when most things roll 2 rangom thins out of six on a table, I don't know what the last one even as exaggerated example is supposed to show.
Cmon thats not like you at all, you can do better than that.
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Post by leeroy1986 on Jul 29, 2012 22:16:02 GMT
Ah okay I musta missed that spell, there's a chance you might not get it and when you do you need a 5-6 to shoot your own unit, it's not exactly good odds, but it is a nice spell. I think The Tyrant& Tervigons rolling on Biomancy maybe slightly more reliable and probably a bit more powerful, but if you can pull that off with the Swarmlord it does seem quite nice. I've found with Zoanthropes their basic spells are too good to get rid of really. A strength 10 ap1 lance? in this edition it's golden but against troop heavy armies I do also still fancy the normal warp blast looking at all the psychic powers available. But that's just me  But the Swarmlord with Telepathy seems nice, giving my Tyrant/Tervigon biomancy seems like a must, making them even more badass in melee. But I don't really know what to give Telekinesis, maybe a broodlord? To be honest NIB I like your list better with the 2 Flyrants, Hive Guard, Tervigons and Gargoyle screen, it is clearly a very strong route for Tyranids I see Psychic powers as an added extra not as a main strategy personally. I could be wrong though, normally am, just my opinion. Leeroy |
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Post by reallysorry on Jul 29, 2012 22:17:23 GMT
I have to agree with creep on the whole randomness of the offensive psy powers. I'd rather Vector Strike + shoot with the TL Devourers any flyer and use Hive Guards instead of Zoanthropes in competitive lists.
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Post by WestRider on Jul 29, 2012 23:07:37 GMT
So, moving past that, recognize that Librarians with Hoods can only help their squad, or a squad within 6'' of them, and unless they're Mastery 2 (not very many people seem to bother, considering Hoods really blow), they only Deny on a 5+ against Swarmlord. 4+ for Mastery 2, as they are equal to Swarmlord. This is all assuming you target something near the Psyker -- a 6'' radius is going to be pretty hard to maintain when transports start popping (and they will, as Rhinos are now garbage, and Land Raiders are expensive garbage). Just one little note: DtW only goes to 4+ if the Defending Psyker is Higher Mastery Level than the caster. If they're equal, it's still 5+. Only a very few things in the Game (Eldrad, tooled up GK Librarians, Tigurius, and Ahriman, off the top of my head) can Deny on a 4+ against the SwarmLord. |
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Post by l0rdf1end on Aug 8, 2012 12:46:37 GMT
Liking this thread. I'm new here, normally spend time on Dakka Dakka but this forum seems more up my street for Nid discussion.
I'm currently running x2 Flyrant list with Gargoyle screen at 1750.
I'm currently testing this -
Flyrant TL Dev x2, HC
Flyrant TL Dev x2
15 Devil Gaunts + Spore
15 Devil Gaunts + Spore
1 Tervigon
Crushing Claws
3 Powers
Doom + Spore - 130
2x Zoans + Spore - 160
2x Zoans + Spore - 160
20 Gargoyles +AG+TS
I had OA on my other Flyrant but found that I was rarely getting him into a position where he could pass the beneift onto other units so I dropped it.
Gargoyles are a shield wall to add cover to the Flyrants and to help keep them out of CC from fast enemy units.
Trouble I find is that they don't last long so I'm not sure if AG+TS on them is worth it (mostly dead by turn 1/2).
Although, if they do live I find they aren't much use unless they have these added bonuses.
Zoans are still great, for me its a case of keeping them out of CC, so dropping the Devil Gaunts right next to them to try and envelope is needed. Gargoyles can help out here too. Once Zoans get caught in CC its game over for them.
The biggest issue I'm having with the list is survivability for the Flyrants.
I'm too eager to charge up the board (hive mind willing nice pyschic power support) to which they still get owned pretty quickly.
Gargoyles only aid a little. I'm toying with the idea of casting TeleKine Dome on the Gargoyles (Tervigon has 3 rolls so good chance of getting this power) to increase my shield wall survivability.
Does anyone have some pointers for deployment with this setup whether you are going first or second?
For now I'm contemplating the idea of if I go first, starting both Flyrants on one end of the board and the Gargyoles and Tervigon on the other. This would be to try and force the player to place his heavy hitting units on the same board side as my Flyrants.
On turn 1 I could then swoop both Flyrants off the board into reserve effectivley causing his hurty units to be far away from my Tervigon and mess up his deployment to buy me survivability until the majority of my army can come in turn 2.
Going second seems tricker because essentially you would or could take two rounds of firing before you can get your army on the board or in a position where your other units are seen as a threat to take pressure off of your Flyrants.
For me I think the only choice for going second is to keep your Flyrants out of harms way until Turn 1 is over.
If anyone has any good advice on deployement strategies I would love to hear them.
Pyschic powers can help give you additional deployement options and general tactics but as said above, they can't be relied upon.
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Post by fragile on Aug 8, 2012 19:10:54 GMT
Lordfiend, I think you are trying to hold too much stuff in reserve. You dont leave enough options on the board for enemies to think about. For playtesting thoughts, you should just assume you will always go second and never count on nightfighting. In your case, I would put the devilguants on the board and spend the spore points elsewhere. When you go get to go, you simply spawn basic Terms in front of the devilgants and then use them as a shield as you go across the board.
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Post by DarkGuard on Aug 8, 2012 20:12:25 GMT
There's been some good posts here, thanks guys!! Glad to know that many others are trying to make Swarmlord builds work, although I must admit I'm still wary about half of the Telepathy powers, they do seem a little poor apart from the WC2 ones and Psychic Shriek. I'm hoping for Terrify to be errata'ed though to get rid of ATSKNF. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 8, 2012 20:16:49 GMT
Terrify can work well on DE at least, who generally have lower LD and are also a great target for devourers, giving you 2 shots at breaking them. Break something like helions/beastmasters/scourges and they are probably off the board.
You can also break out of combat before the movement phase, even against marines, letting you shoot/escape.
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 9, 2012 22:03:18 GMT
Had another game tonight with my double Flyrant/Tervifex build, against Black Templars.
Flyrant - 2xTL Devourers, Old Adversary, Regeneration, Biomancy
Flyrant - 2xTL Devourers, Old Adversary, Biomancy
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards
3 Hive Guards
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
Tervigon - AG, TS, Cluster Spines, Crushing Claws, 3 Biomancy powers
Tervigon - AG, TS, Cluster Spines, Crushing Claws, 3 Biomancy powers
Tervigon - AG, TS, Cluster Spines, Crushing Claws, 3 Biomancy powers
14 Gargoyles - AG
1993 points
He conceded in turn 3, but he didn't have the greatest list. Flying MC's are really fragile even at this early point before all the counters have arrived. My Warlord was hit by a missile and wounded, failed his grounded test and took another wound, and a Typhoon Landspeeder took the last couple of wounds off (I had neglected to cast Endurance). The other Flyrant wreaked havoc though. Hive Guards killed everything meched in range, Termagants and Flyrants shot down Terminators, 9 attack Tervifex made a mess out of one unit of Terminators (with Emperors Champion).
I can't decide on HQ. Regardless of what I chose it will require buying and painting a lot of stuff to the next tournament.
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Post by xenobidion on Aug 9, 2012 22:45:11 GMT
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It says that Puppetmaster is only shooting attacks though so it would have no use on Assault Termies.
But the Swarmlord with Telepathy seems nice, giving my Tyrant/Tervigon biomancy seems like a must, making them even more badass in melee. But I don't really know what to give Telekinesis, maybe a broodlord?
