Psykers and Overwatch

[coredump]

Jul 8, 2012 21:00:30 GMT rehkal said:

It's the same exact thing as warp lance and death or glory.

No, not even close.

DoG *specifically* calls out "shots from a weapon carried" or "a single close combat attack"

They did that because otherwise you would be allowed to use Warp Lance.

[zephoid]

Good god.

I am now taking a chaos sorcerer, giving him white robes and a head with long hair. Then give him lash. When an enemy MC (even better, winged Hive Tyrant) charges my sorcerer i will simply yell "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" and lash him backwards. This find makes me happy

[killme304]

Some of us haven't ever read a Chaos dex....

What does lash do?

[infornography]

I'm pretty sure you can't use witchfire in overwatch. Witchfire does explicitly state when it can be used. During the psyker's shooting phase. While I agree it is somewhat ambiguous, I don't think there is a solid enough case to say that extra permission has been given to allow it during the opponent's assault phase.

This is one of those things that if undiscussed I would not do it to be on the safe side, but should probably be discussed with your opponent beforehand.

[rehkal]

Jul 9, 2012 1:33:10 GMT coredump said:

Jul 8, 2012 20:43:21 GMT rehkal said:

Where does the book state 'psychic shooting attack' is a 'normal shooting attack'?

Where does the book state that a 'normal shooting attack' *only* refers to using a gun?

When my Zoan shoots, it uses Warp Lance, that is its normal shooting attack


Yes, so if you are allowed to fire an assault weapon... then this *counts* as doing the same thing. If overwatch said "you can't fire assault weapons" that would mean no Witchfire either.

It says witchfire powers are manifested instead of firing a weapon. Firing the weapon would constitute a normal shooting attack.

I assume you can give me a page for that rule??

Well geez thats easy. Shooting attacks from guns are only referred to as shooting attacks. Thus, normal.

Psychic shooting attacks/witchfire are referred as just that. It specifically calls witchfire is a -psychic- shooting attack. And your zoan is still using it's witchfire or psychic shooting attack. Not just a normal ranged attack.

Using a psychic power counts as firing a ranged weapon so that you can only do one or the other, not both. Basically it's saying that you may shoot your normal weapon or use a psychic power in it's place.

Overwatch states you may use your normal shooting attack.

Not that you may use your normal attack or psychic power.

Can you quote me where it says you may use a psychic power for overwatch?

As for normal or psychic shooting. Tell me, have you ever seen psychic shooting attacks referred to as normal attacks? Have you ever seen firing a normal weapon referred to as anything other than a shooting attack? I think GW has been pretty clear there -is- a difference between the two.

[zephoid]

The phrase 'normal shooting attack' is stating that it is treated like any shooting phase. It is not specifying what types of weapons may be used. Really, is shooting a gun normal? how about weapons that can be thrown? is that normal? if you are taking it literally and saying it must explicitly state what you can use it states then NOTHING can be used since there is no "normal" weapon in the game and it is defined nowhere in the codex. Anything you assume is putting something into the category of normal that is not stated in the codex. Because guns are not stated as normal, they cannot be used.

[rehkal]

Jul 9, 2012 5:20:51 GMT zephoid said:

The phrase 'normal shooting attack' is stating that it is treated like any shooting phase. It is not specifying what types of weapons may be used. Really, is shooting a gun normal? how about weapons that can be thrown? is that normal? if you are taking it literally and saying it must explicitly state what you can use it states then NOTHING can be used since there is no "normal" weapon in the game and it is defined nowhere in the codex. Anything you assume is putting something into the category of normal that is not stated in the codex. Because guns are not stated as normal, they cannot be used.

If anything you just said was true the overwatch section would state it's treated like the attack phase. But it doesn't say that now does it it? It specifically mentions normal shooting attacks, forget the word normal if you wish the outcome is the same. A shooting attack comes from a weapon and is different from the psychic shooting attack (or witchfire now) that is manifested by a psychic power. Two very different things and unless you can quote something in the book that says they are the same, you can't do it. Why? Because this game is permissive, if it doesn't say you can do it then you can't do it.

[coredump]

But you are creating that rule. Where does it define what a 'normal shooting attack' is?

Are blasts normal?
How about rapid fire?
Are twin linked guns 'normal'?
If the model has a special rule that allows him to reroll hits, is that 'normal'?
Are precision shots normal?


Lets look at the actual rule

"An Overwatch attack is resolved like anormal shooting attack (albeit one resolved inthe enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line ofsight, cover saves and so on. "

resolved like a normal shooting attack. Normally, you can shoot assault weapons. Normally, Psy attacks count as shooting assault weapons. That is what the "normal rules" are.

The overwatch rules have plenty of restrictions....
No morale checks
No pinning tests
Fired as Snap Shots
Not if locked in CC
only once per turn.

Yet they never said anything about not using Psy shooting attacks.

Death or Glory *does* have that restriction, and does specifically call it out.




Lets try something else. Do you think Psy shooting attacks can be used for snap shots against flyers?
Why? It doesn't say they can in the Snap Shot rules. It even says that Snap Shot is an alternative to "shooting normally". So if psy is not 'normal', how can it use Snap Shot?

[rehkal]

Let's take a careful look at the shooting phase since you seem to be having trouble understanding what a normal shooting phase is.

1. Nominate unit to shoot.
2. Choose a target.
3. Roll to hit.
4. Roll to wound.
5. Allocate wounds & remove casualties.

That, right there is your normal shooting phase. Everything in the game with a ranged weapon follows those exact steps, that is normal. Note it says -nothing- about using a warp charge to cast a power. And if you want to get really technical about this. The shooting phase never even says you can use a psychic power during it! It specifies models armed with ranged weapons can shoot! Psychic powers are NOT weapons and ARE NOT SHOT. Which leads me to the next part of this.

Psychic powers, specifically witchfire (psychic shooting attack) states these powers are MANIFESTED during the psykers shooting phase. Here is where you get permission to use these abilities in place of firing a weapon.

Let's check the psychic powers steps.

1. Expend warp charge.
2. Declare target.
3. Take psychic test.
4. Deny the witch.
5. Resolve psychic power.

There is your psychic shooting process, it is quite different from 'normal' shooting.

Let's look at something someone else mentioned. -when- can you use a psychic power? The book is quite clear on this as well. It says the power itself or the class of power will determine when it can be used. Witchfire = psychic shooting attack. Page 69. Witchfire powers are manifested during the psykers shooting phase.

Is overwatch done during the psykers shooting phase? No.

And again you are falling back on the argument of "it doesn't say I can't, therefore I can!". This game does not work like that, get over it.

As for snap shots. Read the last sentence, it says ANY shooting attack. Not -normal- shooting attack.

[zephoid]

During the Shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with
ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks

Page 12

This is the intro to all shooting in the whole shooting section. If you dont qualify for this, you dont fire. According to that and your logic, zoans can never shoot because they are not "armed with ranged weapons". Psychic shooting powers MUST be weapons by the most basic rule in the rulebook or else they break the rules. So we can take your logic, which is a bit warped, and try to apply it to the game, breaking a whole host of models. Or we can accept that psychic shooting attacks are considered weapons and therefore 'normal' and can be fired, bringing the game in-line with what the writers intended (they did not intend to make zoans never shoot).


your other argument is that they follow a different roll order. You infer because there is an extra roll, they cant be normal, but what about weapons like Twin Linked that break that cycle with rerolls. do they work? How about necron Tesla with the extra hits? according to you, since they add another step, they are not normal. Psychic powers fall into the same category.

Do guns say they can ever be fired outside of the shooting phase? Nope, therefore that argument is consistent with psychic powers. A 'normal' shooting attack does not specify guns are fired, therefore you cannot segment guns and psychic shooting attacks without indication. Saying that psychic powers state that they are used in the shooting phase nothing to bolster your argument.

[Jabberwocky]

So can we overwatch paroxysm then?

It says not certain special effects but doesn't list them all.

[gloomfang]

Jul 9, 2012 17:01:13 GMT Jabberwocky said:

So can we overwatch paroxysm then?

It says not certain special effects but doesn't list them all.

No. It does not require a To-Hit roll and as such can not be snap-shot.

[Jabberwocky]

Edit: nevermind you're right.

No shooting attacks that don't use BS.

That means no Nova or Beams either then.

[coredump]

1. Nominate unit to shoot.
2. Choose a target.
3. Roll to hit.
4. Roll to wound.
5. Allocate wounds & remove casualties.

That, right there is your normal shooting phase. Everything in the game with a ranged weapon follows those exact steps, that is normal.

Okay, good to know.
So, based on that definition

Devourers are normal, lascannons are normal, Shootas are normal.

Cool.

Witchfire is not normal, because it adds the step of 'make psy test'. Okay.

We also learn that

Flamers are not normal. (no roll to hit)
Twin linked weapons are not normal (adds a 're-roll misses' step)
Poisoned weapons are not normal (adds 'reroll wounds' step)
Blasts are not normal (again, no roll to hit)
Markelights are not normal (no allocation of wounds)
Pinning weapons are not normal (Adds Roll pinning test)
No shooting within 6" of a HT, (since Preferred Enemy adds 'reroll hits' and 'reroll wounds')

And I haven't even gotten to the codex specific weapons that may alter the Roll hits or Roll Wounds steps. And yes, there are plenty of them.

Oh wait... "Roll Saves" is not on there... so are the only normal attacks ones that don't allow saves?

There is also nothing on there about Armor Pen rolls, so it 'non-normal' to attack a vehicle?


Okay, I will stop now. By going to the utter, most basic, beginning summary, you have locked your argument into a corner; and I think, supported mine.

There are basic rules in the game, and then advanced rules that change the basic rules in some way.
Poison adds some steps
Template removes a step
Pys powers add some steps

This is all 'normal'. As DoG shows, if they wanted 'only guns' they are more than capable of saying so. But they didn't.

Page 69. Witchfire powers are manifested during the psykers shooting phase.

Is overwatch done during the psykers shooting phase? No.

Sure, and lets see how that works in the other direction.
Please go the the Shooting section, and see "when" you can shoot.
Is Overwatch done during the players shooting phase? No.

See how that works?

Shooting has general rules, they say shooting happens in your shooting phase
Witchfire has general rules, they say witchfire happens in your shooting phase

Overwatch is a more specific/advanced rule, and says you *can* shoot in the enemy assault phase.
Witch fire says it can be used instead of shooting a weapon.
Witchfire says it can be used and will 'count as firing an assault weapon'

You have yet to provide a rule that says 'witchfire can be used instead of shooting, but not during Overwatch'

And again you are falling back on the argument of "it doesn't say I can't, therefore I can!". This game does not work like that, get over it.

I am well aware how a permissive ruleset works, but thanks for the primer.

But, as demonstrated above, that is *NOT* my argument.

Witchfire says it can be used instead of a weapon. Please provide a rule that says that rule doesn't apply during Overwatch.

[coredump]

Zephoid did a really nice job of presenting the case, and sounds less snarky than I do...