FNP and Eternal Warrior

[gloomfang]

Rereading the rules I have a question for the Hive.

FNP gives you a save against anything that does not cause ID.
Eternal Warrior makes you immune to ID.

Does that mean if you have Eternal Warrior that you will never not get your FNP save?

[nurglitch]

No. Eternal Warrior makes you immune to Instant Death. Feel No Pain is negated by a weapon that can cause Instant Death. So if a model is hit by a weapon causing Instant Death, it may not cause Instant Death, but it will negate Feel No Pain.

[sturm]

Jul 5, 2012 16:43:11 GMT nurglitch said:

No. Eternal Warrior makes you immune to Instant Death. Feel No Pain is negated by a weapon that can cause Instant Death. So if a model is hit by a weapon causing Instant Death, it may not cause Instant Death, but it will negate Feel No Pain.

^ This.
The starting point of that rule is the weapon, not the one getting hit.

[gloomfang]

Jul 5, 2012 16:47:08 GMT sturm said:

Jul 5, 2012 16:43:11 GMT nurglitch said:

No. Eternal Warrior makes you immune to Instant Death. Feel No Pain is negated by a weapon that can cause Instant Death. So if a model is hit by a weapon causing Instant Death, it may not cause Instant Death, but it will negate Feel No Pain.

^ This.
The starting point of that rule is the weapon, not the one getting hit.

Not really talking about Force Weapons or things that say "Cause ID". I'm talking about something that is T4 hit with a S8 weapon. The S8 weapon is twice the toughness and would usually cause ID, but with EW it can't cause ID.

If that makes more sense.

[liquid405]

A quick note here. Force weapons and Boneswords instant death happens AFTER the wound is not saved. As such, they can be saved by FNP.

[nurglitch]

Yes, the point is that it's not whether the weapon causes Instant Death, but that it otherwise could. If it could, it denies Feel No Pain, even if it doesn't cause Instant Death. It's the capability, not the result, that's important here.

[liquid405]

That's not what the book says boss. "...cannot be made against Wounds that inflict Instant Death."

[nurglitch]

Yes, the weapon inflicts Instant Death, no Feel No Pain roll is made, and the model only loses one wound due to Eternal Warrior. So yes, that is indeed what the book says, 'boss'.

[Elof Valantor]

Jul 5, 2012 17:22:49 GMT nurglitch said:

Yes, the weapon inflicts Instant Death, no Feel No Pain roll is made, and the model only loses one wound due to Eternal Warrior. So yes, that is indeed what the book says, 'boss'.

In the case of Force Weapons and Boneswords it doesn't work like that though (unless the rules for either of them has changed). The wounds caused by those weapons are like any other wound. It's only after you failed to save them that you get to "activate" instant death, and then it only happens if you pass a test (or your opponent fails in the case of Boneswords). So the wound itself isn't causing ID. A double strength wound does cause ID all by itself, and will always cause it. Even if you saved the wound the wound was still an ID wound (you just saved it and avoided dying).

So double strength or things that always cause ID = no FnP.
Wounds that when failed, might cause ID = FnP.

That's the way I interpret it anyway.

[liquid405]

Not quite. It never mentions ID weapons ever, just ID wounds that cause instant death.

Force weapons pretty clearly state that only unsaved wounds cause ID. Same with boneswords.

P.S. Trying to be insulting does not make you more right.

[nurglitch]

Really? I totally thought repeating 'boss' back to you not only made me more right, but it would cause my balls to smell like lavender. Thank you for correcting me.

I mean, I'd prefer that the rules make me more right, but I had honestly believed that repeating a respectful and totally not insulting title back to you would have convinced you otherwise.

[gigasnail]

liquid, you must be new here...

[liquid405]

I am getting trolled, yes? Ah well.

[liquid405]

Jul 5, 2012 17:27:16 GMT Elof Valantor said:

So double strength or things that always cause ID = no FnP.
Wounds that when failed, might cause ID = FnP.

That's the way I interpret it anyway.

Its far more complex than that unfortunately due to the wording. FNP is a special save that happens after unsaved wounds. The book even states it is not a save, just a way to negate the wound.

Thus, for force weapons/boneswords it goes:
a) Fail the save
b) user tries to activate force weapon / leadership save is attempted.
c) if the wound is not ID, then FNP is rolled. Otherwise no FNP is allowed, because it is instant death.

This makes using boneswords against a unit with FNP very VERY tedious.

[nurglitch]

Perhaps someone with ready access to the rulebook will step in and correct me, but Warhammer 40,000 works by rolling to hit, to wound, taking saves, and then taking Feel No Pain rolls.

If you hit, then you roll to wound. If you wound, then your opponent rolls to save. If they fail to save, and the wound inflict Instant Death, then no Feel No Pain roll is allowed. If the model has Eternal Warrior, then it just loses a single wound instead of all of its wounds.

Citations and/or quotations, please.