flyrant falling down

[Obsidorox]

If the Flyrant does fail its grounded check and slams into the ground but doesn't die can it go back to being airborne your next turn or is it on the ground for the remainder of the game?

[creep]

Pg 49 2nd paragraph under dive:
"After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against a.... but before Saving Throws..."

You look it up before being so snotty about it.

I looked it up and its as I said. MCs have to declare to dive before any hit or wound rolls are made.

But flyers can claim cover AFTER all hit rolls.

Thats by the word what is written in my book. Mine is not english though so I need a third party to confirm what is right.
Read the rules for 3 times at least, think about it
and re-read it again pls before posting, don't wanna argue just need the Rule as its actually written there in english ... again... not from you from a third party got it?

By your logic, I could Dive after failing a Grounded Test, regain my Jink, and I could not be Assaulted, which the rules clearly lay out is not the case.

Yes you could dive again, but whats the point? You don't loose grounded its a SEPERATE RULE so stilll negates Jink saves in every case.
Again im not sure about the wording, but do you even get Jink? Shouldn't it just be 5+ Cover, as Swooping is not listed under Jink?

BUT you never loose Swooping and its never negated, so in every case during shooting phase you are hit on BS 1.

so about assaulting we have a Problem as we have to opposing rules which RAW count both so you would have to roll it out, if you can be charged or not at the moment.
The assault part is clearly intended to work so that you can be charged after being grounded.
BUT thats not how its written.

AND AGAIN WHATEVER YOU SAY THERE DOES NOT EXIST A SINGLE PASSAGE IN ANY RULEBOOK OR CODEX ON GODS FORMER GREEN NOW ROCKCOLLORED CAUSE ABSORBED WORLD TO EVER LET ANYTHING HIT YOU WITHOUT AA ON YOUR BF VALUE.
ITS JUST NOT THERE.
LOOK FOR IT IF YOU WANT.
THEN DEAL WITH IT.
AND STOP WASTING MY TIME


and if you again want to convince me with an example like this....
EVERYONE IN THE SAME SHOOTING PHASE WOULD BE FIRING AT THE SAME TIME SO THERE IS NO WAY SOMEONE WOULD WAIT FOR THE BIG THINGIE IN THE AIR WHICH WANTS TO KILL YOU TO CRUSH ON THE FLOOR.

Your argument is thus invalid because neither supported by rules nor by reality

Sorry no offense intended just want to make this clear, because I will have to deal with it from now on every day

I at least need the other Hive members to understand how this works.

If anyone can point out my mistake I'm grateful for any rule based argument.

[killme304]

Jul 3, 2012 16:53:53 GMT creep said:

Pg 49 2nd paragraph under dive:
"After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against a.... but before Saving Throws..."

You look it up before being so snotty about it.

i looked it up and its as I said. MCs have to dive before any hit or wound rolls are made.

But flyers can claim cover AFTER all hit rolls.

Thats by the word what is written in my book. It's not english though so I need a third party to confirm what is right.
Read the rules for 3 times at least, think about it
and re-read it again pls before posting, don't wanna argue just need the Rule as its actually written there.

By your logic, I could Dive after failing a Grounded Test, regain my Jink, and I could not be Assaulted, which the rules clearly lay out is not the case.

Yes you could dive again, but whats the point? You don't loose grounded its a SEPERATE RULE so stilll negates Jink saves in every case

BUT you never loose Diving AS ITS A SEPERATE RULE and is never negated, so in every case during shooting phase you are hit on BS 1.

so about assaulting we have a Problem as we have to opposing rules which RAW count both so you would have to roll it out, if you can be charged or not at the moment.
The assault part is clearly intended to work so that you can be charged after being grounded.
BUT thats not how its written.

AND AGAIN WHATEVER YOU SAY THERE DOES NOT EXIST A SINGLE PASSAGE IN ANY RULEBOOK OR CODEX ON GODS FORMER GREEN NOW ROCKCOLLORED CAUSE ABSORBED WORLD TO EVER LET ANYTHING HIT YOU WITHOUT AA ON YOUR BF VALUE.
ITS JUST NOT THERE.
LOOK FOR IT IF YOU WANT.
THEN DEAL WITH IT.
AND STOP WASTING MY TIME


and if you again want to convince me with an example like this....
EVERYONE IN THE SAME SHOOTING PHASE WOULD BE FIRING AT THE SAME TIME SO THERE IS NO WAY SOMEONE WOULD WAIT FOR THE BIG THINGIE IN THE AIR WHICH WANTS TO KILL YOU TO CRUSH ON THE FLOOR.

Your argument is thus invalid because neither supported by rules nor by reality

Sorry no offense intended just want to make this clear, because I will have to deal with it from now on every day

I at least need the other Hive members to understand how this works.

If anyone can point out my mistake I'm grateful for any rule based argument.

Mods, please delete this if you think I'm posting too much from the book:


"Dive
If threatened, a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping can dive rapidly, throwing off the aim of its attackers.

After the enemy has rolled To Hit and To Wound against a Flying Monstrous Creature, but before saving throws are made, you can declare that it is diving.

A Flying Monstrous Creature that is diving gains the Jink special rule until the end of its next turn. However, because its efforts are focused on diving, it can only make Snap Shots until the end of its next turn."

OMGBBQULIEZCAPSWOOOO

No offense intended I strongly disagree.

Read the above, as quoted word for word from the BRB. So tell me, when do you declare a dive? Oh, I don't know, how about after hits and wounds are rolled, but before saves EXACTLY LIKE IT SAYS, PLAIN AS DAY, SO EVEN AN IDIOT CAN SEE IT in the rules.

Also, what are the requirements to Dive? Oh, how about SWOOPING, which you aren't because you are GROUNDED.

Swooping =/= Grounded

But that's fine, go cheat vs the people you play with. I'm sure they will love it.

Furthermore, Dive has nothing to do with Hard to Hit. HtH is a different rule, but also requires Swooping.

Great, I've been trolled.

EDIT:
If everyone was shooting at the same time, people wouldn't get out of a tank in the shooting phase and get shot up, now would they, smart ass.

[Lanesend]

@ Creep. Caps lock day was a week ago...

killme304. Relax, man. He might be a creep, but I'm sure he means it well.

[creep]

Oh lord I got the important words mixed up.... im gonna correct this. Sorry.


the whole point of it was this



you never loose Swooping AS ITS A SEPERATE RULE and is never negated, so in every case during shooting phase you are hit on BS 1.



as the other stuff like underlining doesn't work that well on my smartphone i decided to use the caps, wasn't intended to get undestood as "shouted".

[killme304]

Jul 3, 2012 18:45:15 GMT creep said:

as the other stuff like underlining doesn't work that well on my smartphone i decided to use the caps, wasn't intended to get undestood as "shouted".

That makes a little more sense, and I didn't mean to blow up like I did. I'm just sick of the rules lawyers, both here and on other sites, trying to abuse rules left and right that have answers that are spelled out.

As for not having the English version, I wouldn't have gone as nuclear if I had known that.

[creep]

I wrote it in the original post, it wasn't edited ^^

so the English and German version again have drastic translation issues.

I don't want to abuse it, as for the charging thing its clear form me that grounded negates immunity against it.

But as Flyers don't suffer from being hit and having a better cover save through Jink I just can't see why flying MCs should be shot at with an BF value when I really can't find it in the Rules
and also can't see an obvious intention to taking away their life ensurance after beeing grounded, which is just a terrible wording for this rule from my point of view.

so back to the question

if you shoot a swooping MC you hit on a 6 grounded or not?

Thats what i want to know as it will make that nearly 300 Point tyrant either worth its points or a luckshot.

[killme304]

Jul 3, 2012 19:17:02 GMT creep said:

so back to the question

if you shoot a swooping MC you hit on a 6 grounded or not?

Thats what i want to know as it will make that nearly 300 Point tyrant either worth its points or a luckshot.

If you get hit, regardless after the number of hits, after the shooting attack resolves (after the wound pool is empty), you take a Grounded test. On a 1 or 2, you fall to the ground and become Grounded, taking a S9 hit with no Armor or Cover Saves allowed. On a 3+, nothing happens.

Quoted from the book, so you have our wording:
"Grounded Tests

If a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a unit's Shooting attack, it must take a Grounded test immediately after that Shooting attack has been resolved.

To take a Grounded test roll a D6. On a 3+, the Flying Monstrous Creature maintains control and suffers no additional effect.

If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded [and yes, those spelling and grammar errors are printed that way lulz]. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn. It regains the Jink special rule if it Dives again later in the game."

[creep]

Okay reading it in english does not help to catch an intention. Its still not said or hinted that Grounded replaces Swooping though....

So we agree that technically you get shot at with BS 1?

[killme304]

I personally read it as you get shot with normal BS after that, because "become Grounded" which further mentions you can be assaulted, which can't happen if you are Swooping.

My logic tells me that you aren't Swooping, but I suppose it is FAQ worthy.

[bigpig]

Jul 3, 2012 20:05:12 GMT killme304 said:

I personally read it as you get shot with normal BS after that, because "become Grounded" which further mentions you can be assaulted, which can't happen if you are Swooping.

My logic tells me that you aren't Swooping, but I suppose it is FAQ worthy.

It needs an FAQ. The rules don't say you lose Swooping. They say you become Grounded, which has certain rules attached to it, such as you can be assaulted. If you are still swooping you can only be hit on 6s. The letter of the law is pretty clear. Yet, how can you be swooping if you are on the ground? Maybe you are still tumbling through the air in the shooting phase. Maybe, technically, its supposed to represent all the fire happening simultaneously rather than, "Ok, you shoot then I'll see what happens before I decide to shoot."

I've seen several rules interpretation disagreements over the past couple of days because of issues like this because GW writers aren't detailed enough for a game system that is played both competitively and recreationally. The two require different standards. The HoW/Bonesword interaction is another such spirit of the rule vs letter of the rule conflict.

I suspect items like this will be resolved when the first FAQ comes out. Until then, its going to have to be a game group by group and TO by TO decision.

[ferro]

This has been fun to read. Check this out:
"At the start of its move, a FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

So what happens if you decide not to move your FMC? Do you have to declare anything? Seems to me it reverts to basic Monstrous Creature rules.
Opponent: Ok what about your Tyrant, will he be Swooping or Gliding this turn?
Me: Oh, that Tyrant is lazy. I declare him to be common and boring. Even though he does have nice wings.

Recall that Gliding = Jump unit, and a Jump unit can always choose to move like its normal, non-jumpy version (p47 first paragraph).

As for Grounding, I think their intent is that when you fail the grounding test you take the S9 hit and immediately become a Glider. But it doesn't say that. What it does say is that I have declared that this model is "Swooping until the start of its next turn." So maybe it just got "Grounded" but it's still technically a Swooper until my next movement phase, when I get to declare again which I want it to be. (Assuming it lives until its next movement phase.)

[Davor]

Is a FMC a JI now? Also as you quoted Ferro, "at the start of it's move, a FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding...." there is no option for being lazy or standing still. To me that means a FMC has to either Swoop or Glide, no other choice, even though JI says it can, FMC can't.

So the question is, how come the Flyrant has leg? LOL.

[killme304]

Jul 4, 2012 2:45:28 GMT Davor said:

Is a FMC a JI now? Also as you quoted Ferro, "at the start of it's move, a FMC must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding...." there is no option for being lazy or standing still. To me that means a FMC has to either Swoop or Glide, no other choice, even though JI says it can, FMC can't.

So the question is, how come the Flyrant has leg? LOL.

If you don't want to move, you need to declare Gliding.

Gliding = normal JI, so you don't have to move if you don't want.

Swooping = must move at least 12".

[ferro]

Good point Killme. Agree.