Shrike Overkill?

[Deleted]

If you had a unit of Shrikes with dual boneswords, wouldn't hammer of wrath allow you to wipe out pretty much any enemy unit instantly provided it wasn't large without needing lash whips?

[Illithid]

You still need to wound marines on a 4+ and the hit is AP- (you may kill 1or 2)

If you then had Lashwhips, you would most likely wipe them out.

[Bot]

As long as there's such thing as Instant death as we know it, there will never be such thing as OP shrikes... Nor warriors for that sake.

But they definitely got better.

[bigpig]

Remember that only the models in base contact the HoW attack.

But here's the real question behind this; Does the "extra attack" benefit from the other special rules of the model, though at AP "-" and base Str? It says it "makes one additiona attack that hits automatically...."

Poison "always wounds on a fixed number"

Bonesword - hits ignore armor saves ( don't have codex ifo me for exact wording )"

[Doc Ruby]

good question. Boneswords ignore armor for "Close combat attacks" - Hammer of wrath is after the charge move and during the initiative 10 step "makes one additional attack that hits automatically hits and is resolved at unmodified strength with an ap of -"

Likewise toxin is "All close combat attacks" have poison blah blah blah

Since boneswords don't have AP anyway, you can ignore that, it doesn't matter.

The question would be on whether a hammer of wrath attack is considered a close combat attack. Im going to lean towards yes (Since its made in initiative) but I can comfortably say these attacks are certainly not designed to ignore armor, although rerolling poison wounds is a little more balanced.

[Illithid]

^ That is a good point. Boneswords may be a loop-hole in this. The rule itself is fairly poorly written and open to interpretation whether weapon special rules apply or not.

[N.I.B.]

Gargoyles actually gets boned by the Hammer rules - their huge bases makes it hard to maximize btb and their 'Blinding Venom' gets bypassed by autohits.

[rpricew]

How would hammer of wrath work with moving through cover (reduce to Init 1)?

[gloomfang]

Jul 2, 2012 9:38:26 GMT Doc Ruby said:

The question would be on whether a hammer of wrath attack is considered a close combat attack. Im going to lean towards yes (Since its made in initiative) but I can comfortably say these attacks are certainly not designed to ignore armor, although rerolling poison wounds is a little more balanced.

From reading the rules it looks like a free hit at the model's strength, no additions. It looks like it is based off of impact hits in WHF.
Basicly its a bodyslam/ram attack.

I will be more than happy if it gets ruled that TS gives you a reroll, but I'm not going to play that way until the TOs tell me I can use it that way. I have the next round of battles for the tourny at the factory on the 16th, I will have to check before then.

[kurbutti]

Jul 2, 2012 13:04:17 GMT N.I.B. said:

Gargoyles actually gets boned by the Hammer rules - their huge bases makes it hard to maximize btb and their 'Blinding Venom' gets bypassed by autohits.

I can't see this being much of an issue if you can't benefit from HoW if you moved (12"?) too far in the movement phase. Can't imagine there ever being a situation where you couldn't just fly all over the board just to get rid of HoW before assaulting.

[bigpig]

Jul 2, 2012 21:07:26 GMT kurbutti said:

Jul 2, 2012 13:04:17 GMT N.I.B. said:

Gargoyles actually gets boned by the Hammer rules - their huge bases makes it hard to maximize btb and their 'Blinding Venom' gets bypassed by autohits.

I can't see this being much of an issue if you can't benefit from HoW if you moved (12"?) too far in the movement phase. Can't imagine there ever being a situation where you couldn't just fly all over the board just to get rid of HoW before assaulting.

I'm pretty sure he's saying HoW rules make it hard for Gargoyles to maximize the benefit the attack. I can't see any circumstance where you wouldn't WANT to get the bonus attack since it doesn't detract at all from your regular attacks.

The problem is, as NIB accurately pointed out, that it is physically very difficult to get a lot of models in base to base because of the base size and the wings as compared to other jump infantry. Also, since you don't roll to hit you are denied the autowounds from 6s to hit.

Though, since it is an "extra attack that automatically hits" I believe you do get the benefits of poison (if you bought it) based on the rules for poison.

[Davor]

Is HoW basically a free Gargoyle attack for everyone now? I forget what the rule was (venom attack?) at the momment. Darn old brain can't remember anything now.

[Tempests Wrath]

Tyranids are fun like this..

Most codex's are limited in that they only get an extra attack at their base str at ap -.

The case with other non-tyranids is that they use the special properties of their weapons when they attack, the HoW is basically an attack without any kind of weapon.

Tyranids dont work like that. We dont necessarily attack with weapons. The weapons augment our baseline to give the model something itself. So by having boneswords every close combat attack, even those made not using the boneswords, ignore armour.

so where a power sword only is ap 3 on attacks made with the power sword (at least i assume 6th ed works as 5th did and if you have more than one special weapon you have to pick one of them to use) tyranids are not using their boneswords or rending claws or scything talons in that capacity. It creates a nice visual. But by virtue of having the every close combat attack made by a Tyranid with 'X' gains 'Y' written everywhere in our codex we just gain the benefit. Period.

You should still gain poison as well if you bought it, it just adds poison to every close combat attack we make.

Edit:: edit caused me to mess up and double post..

[Inquisitor Stingray]

As for know, I'm gonna have to agree with Tempest, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this getting FAQ'd over.

[Davor]

I don't think it will get FAQ'd over. Why because GW does want some things to be Tyranids. AS the saying goes, want to play SM play SM then play SM. That is why we can't do things as they do, like IC in a Mpod. Somethings are SUPPOSE to be different. Just like how GW sided with us in the Shield Wall rule in the FAQ, it was the way they wanted.

So I think we will be ok.