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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Jul 1, 2012 0:40:05 GMT
Well, in fifth edition the rules made a distinction between Psychic Power and Psychic Shooting Attacks, the latter requring a Balistic Skill value. Perhaps things are different now. It's not a must have for our Broodlords, but it would help a bit. I hate to say this Stingray, so please no disrespect. THIS IS NOT 5th EDITION. We have to go by what is written for 6th edition. Just as I told people when I got into 5th edition, I don't care how 4th edition was played, I am playing 5th now. Same goes for 6th. We can't go by 5th editon rules because alot has changed. So far I haven't read any rules for Psychic Shooting Attacks so not sure if that exsists in 6th. Please give me some time to read the rules. Also please people give out page numbers where we can find these rules when you try to prove a point please. Makes it easier to find when we look it up.  No worries, man. I didn't mean to argue that since a rule worked like this in fifth edition it should also act accordingly in sixth edition. I merely mean to point out that things like Witchfire argues that a roll to hit is indeed needed. |
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Post by Davor on Jul 1, 2012 0:44:55 GMT
My apologies Stingray. I just did what I hated. I used previous terminology to argue a rule. My bad. Time to read just 6th editon rules now.
Yeah I missed that part about "needing to hit" part. Sorry again for accusing you of something you didn't do. So hot and humid here, but still, shouldn't have jumped the gun. For that I am sorry.
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Post by coredump on Jul 1, 2012 5:14:25 GMT
let me get this straight, they turned us in to a garbage shooting army backed up by flying stuff? all foot slogging CC choices are junk? This is the first edition that players aren't going to be afraid of genestealers? CC Carnifex is more junk then ever? Do they realize it's impossible to score a destroyed with a VC and HVC now (AP4 and -1 to chart) and we'll have to Hull Point vehicles to death with them? whatever. No, your kneejerk reactions are junk. Those infiltrating stealers are still pretty scary. Yes, you may lose one or two on the way in, so make broods a bit bigger. Nerfed, yes; junk, no. Fexes are better than they were. wound allocation changes, easier cover saves, better FnP, etc. Trygons are probably still better, but that wasn't what you said. If you were ever playing this game hoping a VC/HVC was going to wreck a vehicle... you were playing wrong. The chances of a VC was next to nil; the chances of a HVC were pretty darn small. But now our HGs can reliably take out vehicles. (as can a lot of S4 things we have going for us.) *Having?* to deal with hull points?? Those are one of the best changes for us. That is not a bug, it is a feature.... re: stealers. Opponents with half a brain are going to be occupying cover with the threat of infiltrating stealers to contend with. Of course they are, just like in 5E, just like in 4E. It is something we need to deal with, it isn't something new. Yep, it is easier. And against some units, almost a death sentence. But against most... it just means we lose a stealer or two... so plan for that. Against those trouble units... use other tactics... use two units, shoot first, etc. then stop playing a dice game. Those same stealers have the potential of missing every single attack. But rolling 2d6, and having the option of rerolling one, or both, dice... you really should not be missing assault ranges. Do you have *any idea* what the chances are to not get a 12" charge?? Before you start complaining, you may want to check the facts of the situation.... I posted a chart in the Rumors thread.... Thats not what you said, you said fexes were worse, and they are not. They are better. It may be that trygons are better still... but that is a different issue. |
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Post by fleetofclaw on Jul 1, 2012 6:08:23 GMT
re: stealers. Opponents with half a brain are going to be occupying cover with the threat of infiltrating stealers to contend with. Overwatch made weathering a genestealer assault that much easier to do, especially for high volume of fire squads. Not to mention the potential of genestealers failing to even cover the charge distance. What makes me sick is the possible, though lower probability, situation of completely failing a charge, even at a measily 12" total threat range. Like it or not you are going to have situations where one of your stealers stubs his toe and you stand in the open, your lack of genetalia flapping in the wind to get shot to pieces. re: cc fex. Right, why not have a trygon there? Run in to a vehicle? Again, smash with Trygon. Good players always hid in terrain when stealers were around. This is not changed. Overwatch isn't that big a deal TYPICALLY (there are exceptions). Using MeQ, 10man squad, 10 shots at BS1, just under 2hits average, 1 wound. I agree that the chance of completely flubbing charge range does suck but I don't think it makes them unplayable. Lets get a few games under our belt before making these sweeping declarations. Remember fleet lets you reroll the charge dice. Do take trygon over carnifex  I agree, some games will need to be played. And yes, yes I will take a Trygon. Why oh why must that S9 on a cfex go to such waste? PS: I *do* plan to resurrect the dakkafex for grins. My buddy picked up my book for me today and have yet to connect with him. Does TL work with snapshot? |
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Post by coredump on Jul 1, 2012 6:14:05 GMT
It sure does. And I have been using my devilfex for all of 5E, it comes in real handy....
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Post by Talonis on Jul 1, 2012 6:32:50 GMT
Just finished playing my first game of 6th ed...
What I almost noticed right away was missing from the FAQ:
Deathleapers ability to reduce difficult terrain movement dice for the enemy within 12"... does it or doesn't it apply to units charging?
My opponent and I ended up d6 it, but it doesn't give a clear answer.
All tested out the Harpy too with the new FAQ, and charging a small unit in cover is actually effective. No penalties for terrain, sonic screech and HoW I almost wiped a small tac squad in the first phase.
As for HVC, I found it easier to damage a tank. with S9, I am almost going to take a hull point off a transport, in fact my Harpy killed a Rhino on the turn it arrived buy glancing it to death. HVC + 2 glances from stinger Salvo.
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Post by fleetofclaw on Jul 1, 2012 6:34:15 GMT
let me get this straight, they turned us in to a garbage shooting army backed up by flying stuff? all foot slogging CC choices are junk? This is the first edition that players aren't going to be afraid of genestealers? CC Carnifex is more junk then ever? Do they realize it's impossible to score a destroyed with a VC and HVC now (AP4 and -1 to chart) and we'll have to Hull Point vehicles to death with them? whatever. No, your kneejerk reactions are junk. Those infiltrating stealers are still pretty scary. Yes, you may lose one or two on the way in, so make broods a bit bigger. Nerfed, yes; junk, no. Fexes are better than they were. wound allocation changes, easier cover saves, better FnP, etc. Trygons are probably still better, but that wasn't what you said. If you were ever playing this game hoping a VC/HVC was going to wreck a vehicle... you were playing wrong. The chances of a VC was next to nil; the chances of a HVC were pretty darn small. But now our HGs can reliably take out vehicles. (as can a lot of S4 things we have going for us.) *Having?* to deal with hull points?? Those are one of the best changes for us. That is not a bug, it is a feature.... Of course they are, just like in 5E, just like in 4E. It is something we need to deal with, it isn't something new. Yep, it is easier. And against some units, almost a death sentence. But against most... it just means we lose a stealer or two... so plan for that. Against those trouble units... use other tactics... use two units, shoot first, etc. then stop playing a dice game. Those same stealers have the potential of missing every single attack. But rolling 2d6, and having the option of rerolling one, or both, dice... you really should not be missing assault ranges. Do you have *any idea* what the chances are to not get a 12" charge?? Before you start complaining, you may want to check the facts of the situation.... I posted a chart in the Rumors thread.... Thats not what you said, you said fexes were worse, and they are not. They are better. It may be that trygons are better still... but that is a different issue. I'm going to refrain for matching the sarcastic and nasty tone you gave me in your post. Before responding that I too was sarcastic in my post, bare in mind I wasn't aiming it at a poster, it was just my gut reaction to the FAQ. I will agree my stealers are very happy with the change to poison, and adrenal glands become much more interesting in conjunction with them, though probably still cost prohibitive on stealers. The loss of the initiative boost to furious charge pretty much guaranties that I will be taking AG *after* I take TS on most 28mm / 40mm units if I take them at all. The core of my list has been largely fliers - gargs, shrikes, flyrant (which I will have to see how the grounding plays out before I'm all thumbs up on the FMC changes) with several genestealers broods and a terv / gant crew, then various anti-vehicle options. I used the speed and flexibility of my army to as much advantage as possible. Losing out on same turn assault on outflank and the general slow-down of foot is going to force me to rework things. I will say Raveners look tastier then ever. It would be hard to drop either Shrikes or one of my garg swarms, but they are essentially what I need in my style of list. |
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Post by N.I.B. on Jul 1, 2012 10:28:20 GMT
While I don't agree with all the gloom about Genestealers, lifting forward 'easier cover saves' as a positive is reaching. It's not like Genestealers had a difficult time finding cover in 5th ed, and I don't think it got any easier. In 5th ed if a toe nail was covered = cover saves. Now it's 25% or stand in area terrain (as in 5th). Doesn't make up for the dropping to 5+.
Better FnP - I don't think so. What are the common weapons that ignore armour and are less than S8 - plasma is the only one that immediately comes to mind. Boneswords (though not very common) and other rare stuff, but still. Doesn't make up for dropping to 5+.
Outflanking wasn't so much in getting charges, it was the threat of the charges and herding the enemy into the middle of the board. Just a small brood was enough. That is most likely gone now. You will have to invest more more points to get a big brood outflanking, and hope that there will be terrain to grab when you enter.
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Post by immortalblue on Jul 1, 2012 11:00:09 GMT
I went through book with local owner and two others we could find nothing about the powers without shooting profiles needing to roll to hit so when we play tested my broodlord took psychic shriek. See page 69, first paragraph. Witchfire which is not a blast must roll to hit  Sent from my GT-I9300 using ProBoards |
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Post by Sensei on Jul 1, 2012 12:35:07 GMT
To me, genestealers and hormagaunts are the stereotypical "Nid" units and I love hitting my enemies hard and fast with them. Although I'm a little bummed at the fact I can't charge after outflanking, and at the changes to Fleet, I'm still excited to try them both out.
Overwatch means we might lose a few in the charge, but overall I think this rule is way more representative and balanced than the old "No retreat" rules. I can't count the number of times I lost combat by ridiculous numbers because my opponent got lucky on his save roles, and my hormagaunts trampled themselves to death. That said, add a couple models to compensate for overwatch. The real bonus I see is the potential threat range hormagaunts have. Move 6 inches, and potential 12 inch charge. Yes, we may not be able to run and assault anymore, but why run at all now? In fifth, running was often necessary to push our nids just a little closer to be able to make the 6 inch charge. Now you can attempt to charge from 12 inches away. If you fail, you might lose a model or two to overwatch, but you're almost guaranteed to be able to charge next turn after moving again. What I'm excited about is the time we do make the charge and deny our opponent a round of shooting they thought they still had.
As for Genestealers, I feel like the Broodlord is MUCH more viable in 6th and is going to be an absolutely brutal assassin and character killer. I'm truly hoping the lack of a BS is an oversight on GW's part as all of the default psychic powers you can fall back to on a bad roll require one to use. Without a BS it limits the BL in terms of psychic abilities but there are still some that are quite worth taking. The one I'm most interested in, and the one I'm hoping will effectively still allow genestealers to outflank is "Telekine Dome" - Giving our genestealers an invulnerable and redirecting enemy firepower back at them? Yes please! Granted it's a gamble to attempt to roll for that psy power, but that's what friendly games and house rules allowing you to choose the powers you want rather than roll are for. I'm already planning just such a game with my friend just to test out the new psy powers.
Overall, there's some good, some bad and as usual if you're not part of the imperium, well tough luck. But that's sort of how it's always been and Nids are still around. We'll pull through, and in the end, if it turns out there are less vehicles, all the better for us. Even if flyers take off (pardon the pun) they are more vulnerable than tanks, and much more dangerous to keep infantry sitting in due to the wounds they take if it gets shot down. The only question left is do we have to tip the pilots for delivery?
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Post by Davor on Jul 1, 2012 13:09:47 GMT
What I almost noticed right away was missing from the FAQ: Deathleapers ability to reduce difficult terrain movement dice for the enemy within 12"... does it or doesn't it apply to units charging? My opponent and I ended up d6 it, but it doesn't give a clear answer. I know I am not the brightest in the tool shed, makes lots of mistakes, but Why would it have to be FAQed? If it's in the codex, the rules apply. WHY WOULD THEY NOT APPLY? Now that is the question you have to ask. Why does it need to be FAQed? Was Shadows in the Warp FAQed? No, rules still apply the same, so same as the DL rule. What I am trying to say, is not everything needs to be FAQed. |
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Post by creep on Jul 1, 2012 15:24:03 GMT
Did any of you see the "focus fire" rule?
Stealers got nerfed quite hard as you can shoot them without cover if you just declare to shoot those without cover. You really get decimated fast if you take bigger units and your opponent can't kill them all in one go.
If you run 20+ Stealers you really want Venomtrophes now - which are now in nearly every case on 5+ cover... and thus can be killed by a stray lasgun... they should have given at least the venomtrophes the shrouded rule so that you can hide behind stuff for 2+ or 3+ cover...
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Post by coredump on Jul 1, 2012 18:53:04 GMT
Since nerfed multi assault, and nerfed FnP; I think smaller stealer broods are the way to go. I am thinking 6-10 + BL (depending on TS or not)
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Jul 1, 2012 19:29:34 GMT
The loss of the Fleet + Assault lolCharge may not be as bad as it sounds, but I can still think of plenty cases where I'd prefer the old rule. Obviously this varies from player to player, but I often moved into cover with my Hormes during the Movement Phase, then used Run to get free of the Cover and finally Assaulting my opponent. If I understood the rules correctly, even if my opponent is out in the open, I will still be slowed down on the charge because I started the move in Cover?
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Post by creep on Jul 1, 2012 19:33:05 GMT
You're correct
but thats not a change, its the same as in 5th. As long as you had to take a terrain test - difficult or dangerous - you had I 1.
You could cross obstacles like a wall with fleet to avoid that though which isn't viable anymore.
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