Honest Help On Dealing With This Gamer...

[Xantige]

I know the Hive isn't the best place to get life advice, but you guys are the only fellow gamers and friends I know that could possibly help me with this situation. This is a serious problem, so I'd appreciate no mocking or jokes unless it's in an attempt to cheer me up...

Every Sunday I go to my local game club, the place sells all types of games, so it's gaming floor is filled with all types of gamers, from card gamers to wargamers. Sunday is the only day the painting table is open, which is why it's the day I choose to go. It's also the main day that 40k players show up. Because the place is so massive though, the painting table is far from the 40k players, so if I miss the first round of games (I often do) it means as I paint in waiting, I'm segregated from the 40k group. So I pretty much still don't know these 40k gamers too well, but I know the painting table crowd pretty well.

The painting table crowd don't overlap with the 40k or warmahorde groups, who only come to play, not paint. For whatever reason, the painters really dislike both those game systems, though most of the people there are mild mannered about it and hate the games, not the gamers. I'm an easy going person, so I usually roll with it. I'm also someone that listens to people and engages them, so I was a hit among some of the more... er... socially inept gamers.

This is where my problem begins. I got into another game system with one of the painter guys -- lets call him Dawn. Dawn has a thick nerd accent, and what would appear to be a handicap in math, writing and language in general. He needs a moment to calculate the scores of two dice, and he doesn't take any advice or critique well. If you say anything bad about something he likes, he'll defend it. He's also heavy into indie stuff and hates anything mainstream. He has obvious self esteem issues and issues with feeling valued. He also hates GW, and also views all GW gamers as jerks. Don't ask me how he likes me, I honestly think it's just because I'm female and I treat him like a human being.

The game he got me into was Gruntz 15mm. It's a game played with 15mm scale models and the gimmick is that you can make the stats for all the units in your army. Dawn bought the rules and was kind enough to make me a force using my Tyranids and some alien rip off 15mm models he let me buy for dirt cheap. The games were... okay. We didn't play with enough terrain and his army was a gunline that had more speed than my assault army and also matched my guys in CC pretty well. At first I thought I was just playing badly. But soon I saw just how unfair the game was. As it turns out, the game isn't anywhere near as balanced as Dawn said it was. In the current rules, elite armies are dirt cheap. So you pretty much get the equivelent of a 1 to 1 ratio of space marines verse Tyranids. Dawn won't listen to any of my critiques about the game or the uneven nature. He's very happy with his Mary sue force -- and it is a mary sue force. His army is faster than me, better at shooting (I don't have guns) and just a hair less good in assaults, but he has as many guys as I do. He loves this army, and he really doesn't want to have any sort of handicap that might give me a chance. We've talked about more terrain and him taking a single unit of his guys out, but neither really happens. He's not willing to hear that Gruntz is still a heavily broken indie game.

Just a few days ago I bought the rules to the game, because Dawn's honeyed words about the game finally made me cave. Plus the creator will be releasing a new edition this summer which will be free to those who have bought the current ones. All of that for $9? Didn't seem like a bad deal. However, reading the rules was what led me to see how broken the game can be. And wouldn't you know it? Shawn either intentionally or purposely exploited the game. So the only way for me to have a chance is to exploit the game too, but I'd rather not. I've also now realized how many rules Shawn has gotten wrong, but trying to talk to him about that is fruitless, he gets defense and would rather use his rules than the real rules. In some instances, I'm okay with that because it works to both our advantage... but now he's going too far. Now he's trying to mess with the customizers to possible get himself cheaper units. To be fair, this might be accidental, but either way the result would be a cheap unit with 4x the shots it normally has. I commented on this (this was on a forum) and he has yet to respond. Sadly, I don't think he'll listen to me and will field this unit anyways. Worse, I think at this point I'm looking like a wet blanket, so I wonder if he's ever going to listen to me at all. The problem is, I like to stick to the rules, and he doesn't.

Now I'm so sick of Dawn that I want out. The problem is, he takes offense easy, and I fear that if I civilly say I don't want to play Gruntz anymore, I'll just become "another GW lackey" in his eyes, which would make the painting table really awkward. If things go sour between us than it could get awkward going into the club every Sunday. Other than Dawn, I don't have any regular friends I could talk to. More than that though, I don't know how it'd react at all... maybe he'd shape up his game and we'd get on fine... maybe he'd shut me out... maybe he'll talk behind my back... I don't know. But avoiding him won't work. If I'm at the painting table he usually moves beside me and talks my ear off, and I can't arrange for a 40k game every Sunday, and I can't always stay for the 2nd round of games...

Maybe this seems like a non issue to most people, but I'm shy and non confrontative. Basically, I need advice on dealing with the situation as best as possible with as less blood shed and hate as possible. Call me stupid, but I don't know how to deal with someone like this other than to find a new club, which isn't an option.

[Dro]

Xan, you have to stop caring some much about what other people think of you.

You can't be afraid to walk up to someone you don't like and tell them to politely (please do not swear) off. What if they think your a dick? So what, you don't like em either.

Own this. Be the change you want to see. Period.

[Hellbreaker]

I'd quite simply ask him if he wants to play Gruntz, or his own spin-off version of the game.
If you don't like him deviating from the core rules then by all means make that clear, don't deviate from the rules. Most importantly just question him whenever he exploits them.

Thing is, from most of your posts in the past it seems like you want to be on good terms with everyone. This is fine, I try that myself. You treat other people like human beings, like you should but I can't see anywhere that you act like one yourself. It just seems like you're nodding along and taking the (please do not swear) thrown at you.
If you don't like something, show it. Don't just nod and agree because you're afraid someone might get a bit hurt, because people will get hurt then build bridges to get over the rivers they cry.

[Xantige]

Jun 21, 2012 23:57:14 GMT Dro said:

Xan, you have to stop caring some much about what other people think of you.

You can't be afraid to walk up to someone you don't like and tell them to politely (please do not swear) off. What if they think your a dick? So what, you don't like em either.

Own this. Be the change you want to see. Period.

Boy I wish I could! I won't go into detail but I suffer from a disorder that makes that as hard as a Drama Queen being modest. Worst yet, I got the disorder when I did stop caring, and I had about 5 girls that made sure life was miserable and no one had my back. I'm in a similar situation now, where I have no friends to back me, so I'm on my own and I always walk on eggshells because when I make enemies, I have no friends to back me or even to open up to. Sure I have acquaintances, but they're not invested in what happens to me. Man that must sound pathetic...

Jun 22, 2012 0:08:46 GMT Hellbreaker said:

I'd quite simply ask him if he wants to play Gruntz, or his own spin-off version of the game.
If you don't like him deviating from the core rules then by all means make that clear, don't deviate from the rules. Most importantly just question him whenever he exploits them.

Thing is, from most of your posts in the past it seems like you want to be on good terms with everyone. This is fine, I try that myself. You treat other people like human beings, like you should but I can't see anywhere that you act like one yourself. It just seems like you're nodding along and taking the (please do not swear) thrown at you.
If you don't like something, show it. Don't just nod and agree because you're afraid someone might get a bit hurt, because people will get hurt then build bridges to get over the rivers they cry.

You're right, for all I do to treat people like people, I don't act like one myself. I always write off my emotions as stupid or invalid. Heck, I almost never speak of my opinions or interests. It's been ingrained into me since I was young to act like that. Part of the above mentioned disorder is feeling subhuman and having nothing of worth. It's really hard for me to overcome, simply because I never stop and think "hey, that made me eel upset. I should do something about it!" If that makes any sense...

When you say to simply ask him though, how would you go about it? Would you bluntly ask it and sound slightly annoyed? Or try and sugarcoat it? Usually when I confront someone I always end on a note that, in a way, I guess invalidates me. I may say something a bit blunt, but civil, but then I might add "but I'm also stupidly OCD about following the rules...". I really don't know why I do that, all it probably does is give the person the option of blaming it on me.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Many advice will be given and different approaches will be suggested. People deal with similiar situations in different ways, and having limited knowledge about you, Dawn and the rest of the gamers, it's hard to come up with a bulletproof way of solving this problem.

Hellbreaker makes a good point; while you sound like a nice person, people who are non confrontive are also prone to being taken advantage of by socially inept, hypersensitive idiots like this Dawn guy. I figured you want to describe him as nicely as possible, but even then he sounds like bad company. I tend to indulge in pessimism and misanthropy, but I try do to so in a philosophical way. Simply ranting about Games Workshop, fellow gamers and the weather is just childish and hardly worth listening to.

I realise there are several aspects of this case, the three most obvious being the fact(s) that you feel insecure about telling him how you feel, your fear of his reaction and the following aftermath, that could possibly ruin your chances of having an enduring stay at the store. Supposing that he considers you his friend, you are more than allowed to express your dissatisfaction with him. After all, if he can rant about the things he doesn't approve of, then so can you. That is not to say that you should freak out or call him things, make it a priority to talk to him calmly and nicely, especially if you chose to talk to him while there are people nearby.

If it helps you in any way, try thinking about in this way: not only do you need to talk to him because of your own feelings and unhappiness about the whole situation, you also need tell him these things for his own damn sake. This guy is way out of line, acting like a humongous idiot. Some of it can be blamed on bad childhood, social akwardness and so on, but in the end this guy has a choice between being a nice, competent person and being a giant douchebag. Unfortunately for the victims of these cases, their passive behaviour is mere encouraging him to keep ranting and whining. You don't have to play pedagogue, but you need to make him understand that as long as he is acting the way he is, you don't want to hang around with him.

Chances are he'll freak out. Chances are that the painting table will be filled awkardness and silent stares. Chances are he'll talk behind your back and hate you. But if your fellow gamers are worth a damn, they'll understand you and hopefully support you. And even if not, well, then you'll have lost a few periphery relations, but reclaimed your integrity. And that, I believe, is worth more than any wargame, community or apparent friend.

"It's not what happened, but how you handled it, that defines you as a human being." - Soeren Kirkegaard

[Overread]

You could always suggest swapping armies - or you could (now you've got the rules) build your own army classed after his. It sounds more like he's not a good player and might simply be getting his fun out of this by finding it an easy win (either by accident or deliberate manipulation of the rules). That's all and well for him; but its heck no fun and fair on you.

I know you might get worried about the fallout; but honestly I would say that you go to the club there to have your fun and your relaxation time. It's just not fair on you if you keep playing in a game like this if your only opponent is twisting the rules purely for their own advantage.


I would say either just move on from the game "I don't find it fun anymore" "its just not what I want in a game "I prefer GW" and let him make his own mind up about if friendship is more important to him than winning or his hate of mainstream/other games. If not then I'd just move on. I'm sure there are loads of other people there to check to and game with and I'm sure you'll get along just fine opening up to a few others.

The other option is to draft in other people to the game - share the rule book you've got (during game hours only and away from paints/waterpots - and within sight of course ) and see if anyone else wants to join in. If its playing with rules and proxy models and the game is fairly fast you might well get a few more to just join in.

((eep loads of replies appeared as I posted! ;)_))

[Loplod]

I need to change from the red text default scheme because that was terribly hard to read and now my eyes hurt

as far the problem with dawn/shawn (you swapped names a few times in there) just shrug it off, tell him you're not really feeling in the gaming sort of mood and you just want to paint. And just keep shrugging it off saying you're not really feeling it.

You've described him as fairly nerdy and such, stereotypically he would be (somewhat) afraid or intimidated by women (which you are one) so when you say no thanks he's probably not going to push it.

friendship works two ways, and if you're being reasonable and nice then he should be nice back, if he's going to be a poo-face about it then just don't play with him. Just tell him you don't find the game fun and you would rather paint.

[Hive Fleet Cthulhu]

Tell "Dawn": "Hater's gonna hate, so go suck a lemon." Then again... I suck at giving advise. So, this would probably end badly... like the one time I told my friend to say this to a girl he liked "Hey, baby, how would you like to ride the sausage train. Choo, choo!" He did it... and he got kicked in the nads. On the bright side I filmed it and he threatened to murder me if I told anyone or should anyone the video... you guys don't count... he doesn't know you.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Jun 22, 2012 3:35:57 GMT Hive Fleet Cthulhu said:

Tell "Dawn": "Hater's gonna hate, so go suck a lemon." Then again... I suck at giving advise. So, this would probably end badly... like the one time I told my friend to say this to a girl he liked "Hey, baby, how would you like to ride the sausage train. Choo, choo!" He did it... and he got kicked in the nads. On the bright side I filmed it and he threatened to murder me if I told anyone or should anyone the video... you guys don't count... he doesn't know you.

Erh... Cool story bro.

[Hive Fleet Cthulhu]

Thanks, bud. I'll be sure to try and not tell it at parties.

[Deathnid]

Shawn... er, i mean Dawn obviously has he's issues, but it seems to me like he just doesnt want to pay for GW minis.
1. You cuold make him watch you play a game where you have altered the rules to balence it out and maybe he will think less of the whole "lackey" thing.
2. maybe he just needs to see how to realy play Gruntz, so find somebody else playing it right.
3. Hire an assasain.
4. pronounce your love for him and see what happens (I vote for this one ;D)

Edit: Nerds are smart, what you got thar is a Geek ;D

[Rakuall]

Beat him at his own game. Not Gruntz, his love of Indie games and hate of everything else. See if you can find a cheap of free indie ruleset, study it, build an exploitative over-powered list, build him a sub par list, then introduce him to the game.

"Hey, I found this cool indie game, I thought we might try it instead of Gruntz today. I made a couple lists to try, and the models we have should proxy them okay."

He'll either agree play, and get absolutely stomped, or not play at all. If he plays, keep playing until he wants to go back to Gruntz. If he declines to even try, or when he gives up and wants his easy win back, tell him he's just a Gruntz lackey. Let him be stunned for a moment, then explain that this was all a demonstration to show him how you've been feeling. You're still happy to play Gruntz, if he plays by the rules and balances his list a little; you still would like to be his friend, you just need some empathy; etc. Either he'll smarten up and change his game, or he'll go back to being a dipshit. If the former, your friendship will be stronger for it. If the latter, he is a waste of skin and, quite frankly, not worth your time.

This method requires a wee bit of confrontational ability near the end ("Well you're just a Gruntz lackey"), but I hope (for your sake his) that you can muster it.

[Psychichobo]

This definitely sounds more like a problem with him and not the game.

From what I've gathered from your posts your problem is that you're letting people like this Shawndawn guy pretty much dictate the terms of friendship and take advantage of you.

You need to start being assertive - and I know it's easier said than done, but really it's the only option other than to meekly give in and stay miserable. If people are 'forgetting' to have matches with you, hang around and remind them, naggingly if it turns out they're doing it deliberately. If people don't like your opinions, get angry if they get angry at you, and don't act or feel ashamed if you get something wrong. And if this guy's playing a game that's as balanced as Matt Ward's mental state and is insisting that you're only losing because he's better, then just stop playing.

It's easy for me to say these things, and that I understand. But you have to really sit down and think of what you'll gain and lose - if you give in and submit, you'll be unhappy and bored. If you become assertive, then think what will happen then. People might start to respect you. They may not even have realised you were upset or felt left out and resolve to game with you more often. They might get annoyed and ignore you, in which case it doesn't matter because you weren't friends in the first place and they're obviously people who're more trouble than they're worth. If they get aggressive, then just get aggressive back. It's a bit lame, but as a girl you can seriously mock them where it hurts too.

Either way, you need to do something. Don't sugarcoat it too much, and if he's refusing to play with the proper rules then just refuse to play. If he talks behind your back, go find who he's been talking to and demand to know what's going on. Heck, if he's as big a jerk as you say the other gamers will gladly take your side.

[Xantige]

So many posts! I can't really quote and respond to everyone without writing a novel!

@inquisitor Stringray - You bring up a couple points I honestly hadn't thought about. Most of my "friendships" have been affairs of mutually just putting up with the other person for some benefit, with me being the person with something the other wants, and me being too desperate for friends to say no. You're right, if he's worth hanging out with at all, he'll listen up. If it doesn't go well… well… I'm pretty sure no one is going to listen to him complaining about me since no one does so at current.

And if he's doing all this and doesn't mean to, than he'll only know if I spell it out for him. After he gets it, he can decide what to do.

Overread - I have thought of swapping armies, but a part of me is scared that the irony gods will strike and he'll cream me . Not that he's a particularly skilled wargamer, he's only been playing games as long as I have. Thing is, I'm not sure he'd accept. Have you ever read a bad fanfiction where the hero is just a insert of the author, only the hero is also amazingly good at everything and also rightious and beautiful on top of it all? That's Dawn's army in a nutshell. He's made a Mary Sue army that's the best at everything, and thanks to the uneven point system, he can have his space marines -- I mean space werewolves -- at almost a 1to 1 ratio as my cheap space bugs. He knows the system is broken, and for all his words about making it even, he hasn't done anything about it, so I doubt he'd want to switch armies. I don't think I could even "trap" him if he said no, because his reasons would be that he doesn't like assaulty armies, or he really loves his space m-- werewolves. (Hmm… if we end up enemies I may have to bug him about his beloved army being just like Space Marines… that'd make him rip his hair out).

Sadly, the rulebook I have is PDF file, that's why it was so cheap for me and I'll be receiving the new rules for free. I don't have an ipad or similar device, and printing the thing would cost about $50 if I wanted it in colour. I may get the new rules printed (maybe in B+W, even if that might deter some new folks…) but right now, it'd be silly too. Sadly, few people have any 15mm models, and I barely have enough for a small army, so proxying might be a bit tough, and we may have to resort to just using pennies for troops, which isn't a very god first impression.

Loplod - Darn! Well so much for the fake name. Oh well, he'll probably never read this forum…

Deathnid - Bleh. He Even if I was into guys I wouldn't be into him. But he's probably praying at night that I confess undying love for him. At one point before I knew him well, he asked why I never got a ride to the club from my boyfriend. Before I could think about the repercussions of my words, I said I had no boyfriend.

Concerning GW and him though, he was into 40k and fantasy at one point, and then he fell out of it after playing only a couple games. He says he hates the company for how it treats it's gamers and employees… but I wonder if he had other reasons for quitting. He also hates the GW heroic scale minis, and he's big into 15mm scale, so a part of me wonders if he wasn't accepted by the 40k and fantasy players because he kept changing the rules, so he quit. I've never really gotten the info out of him, all I got were his old 40k minis for $25, and there were a lot of them.

Rakuall - The thing is… he's not bright. I mean that as best as I can. He is honestly just not as intelligent as the average person. He's so mathematically impaired that I wonder if he's even aware of what his game changing does to the game. He's also emotionally sensitive. He'd feel immensely betrayed if I did that. Heck, I don't think he'd even get the point. He's someone that can't discern mocking hatred from helpful critism. He also doesn't understand when you're talking about something he happens to like, or him. In his mind, if you say something bad about something he likes, it's akin to saying you don't like something about him, and he jumps up to defend it without thinking. Heck, you don't even have to say something bad, just make a comment other than "this ______ is amazing!" and he'll jump to defend it. This pretty much makes talking about the flaws of Gruntz impossible, he doesn't want to hear me say that the imbalance in Gruntz isn't minor, but game breaking. He doesn't want to hear that he has an unfair advantage with his shooty army because the gruntz rules shaft assaulting. He doesn't want to hear that I want more terrain on the board because without it, my assault army is toast. He doesn't want to hear that he can't make up imaginary undercosted units that break the army builder system and good luck pointing out where and when he got the rules wrong. I can understand being defensive about your likes at times, but he takes it to another level…

@everyone - Thanks with all the advice so far. It feels good just to talk about this with people that understand, I've been letting it pressurize for too long… I think I'll send him an email that bluntly, but politely tells him that if something doesn't change, I'm going to put Gruntz away. I'll tell him we can still be friends, but I just can't play Gruntz if he's going to change the rules, field a mary sue army and make the board sparse of terrain, etc.

[Space is pretty big]

See, if you despose of his body by carving it up, and then feeding it to pigs, by the time it goes through their system and gets washed away.... Oh wait, you mean dealing with him in a NON lethal way....


Thing is I kinda think of things this way: If he were a pedophile or a Nazi, would I still want him to like or respect me?

Yeah it's an extreme example, but the point is, if this guy is an obvious dimwitted moron, his opinion of you is irrelevant, and based not on your actions but his own stupidity.

From EVERYTHING you tell me his judgments are not rational, so trying to cater to them is equally irrational. To be blut, I even find it immoral. For me there is a moral wrong in adhering to the opinions of vulgar and petty minded people. He may not be a pedophile, but he obviously isn't the type of person capable of deep meaningful empathy.

The email is a good idea, not for his sake because he is TOTALLY going to flip at you if he is even half close to the type of person I think he is, but this isn't about him. For your sake, it's good to be honest and strong in front of those whom disagree with you. To stand for what you believe in.


If what you think is right is to much for him to handle, then to heck with him; ;but you'll be the better person for adhering to your values.