warriors and venom cannons

[coredump]

And your theory is fine; I can agree with almost all of it.

It is your specifics that don't add up. Yes a 'twofer' is great, and a good payoff. But the way you keep trying to do it is just way too unreliable and too unlikely.

[nurglitch]

The likelihood is commensurate with the payout. Killing two birds with one stone 25% of the time is worth more than killing one bird with one stone 50% of the time. Particularly if you get lucky on turn 1, but even on turn 7. That's why twofers a disproportionately unlikely to pull off.

Let's simplify what I'm trying to explain here. Imagine we have two units. One unit (A) kills on 4+. The other unit (B) kills on 6+. The 4+ is more reliable, and therefore better, all else being equal. Yet not all else is equal. The context is important. The number of kill results is important. We need two consecutive 4+ rolls to kill two units, and one 6+ roll to kill one unit, then the 25% chance of the former is more reliable than the 16% chance of the latter, despite the expected value of the former being 9/36 and the latter being 12/36.

In the context of a game lasting six turns and getting to roll every turn, we're more likely to experience killing one unit per game than two units per game, and if we were working from experience then it would seem reasonable that unit A was clearly better than unit B. Especially in a game where our opponent had access to the same units - attrition would mean scoring single kills early in the game would give an advantage to the side scoring earlier kills since those would reduce our opponent's ability to retaliate.

Warhammer is more complex since partial results are not only possible, but relevant. Where unit B off-sets the unit A advantage of more reliably scoring kills by preventing early kills, and enabling us to keep rolling dice in hope of that 6, unit B has an advantage. The nice thing about Warhammer being that both units are live options for the players, and the unfortunate thing is that most players don't understand that.

[N.I.B.]

Jun 26, 2012 13:34:19 GMT nurglitch said:

The risk of Instant Death to Warriors has never been as great as has been supposed, especially since Warriors have access to a Cv5+ from Venomthropes, if not Cv4+ from Rippers/Termagants/Hormagaunts, and Krak-catchers in the form of Tyranid Primes.

True - even with easy 4+ cover, Warriors didn't make it into competitive lists. Because they didn't bring enough of the good stuff to the table. Great objective holders, in a codex full of great objective holders. Great infantry killers, in a codex full of great infantry killers. Synapse, in a codex... you get the idea. They lack a role. Jack of all trades, master of none. And I don't see that changing in 6th just because Venomcannon gets slightly better, since they'll die faster than ever.
Unless GW does something crazy in the FAQ like everything under synapse = immune to ID.

[ilnar]

Warriors with LW and BS and TS are the best close combat unit in the game, bar non,
In a game where close combat is all but dead and shooting has just become king, (taken with a pich of salt, I don't think snapfire will make that much difference,we shall see)
they aren't great at shooting, unless in a pod to get the best of range, pod might die to interceptor fire but the warriors shooting ain't bad, it's not amazing, but still
they aren't a great shooting unit, and in a gun battle I'd go with the barbed strangler for the pinning, we have plenty of good antitank,
Fexen in pods with 2x twin linked devs for example, or zoans, or hive guard, or shrikes with claws, or pods if you're really in a pinch, 5 S6 shots ain't bad at all. Or any MC in combat even the harpy,

[coredump]

Jun 26, 2012 19:32:26 GMT nurglitch said:

The likelihood is commensurate with the payout. Killing two birds with one stone 25% of the time is worth more than killing one bird with one stone 50% of the time. Particularly if you get lucky on turn 1, but even on turn 7. That's why twofers a disproportionately unlikely to pull off.

Again, I agree with your theory. The problem is when you try and put it into practice. The tactics you present are not '25%', they are more like 2.5%; and that is the problem.

And the other factor is the cost. How many units do you need to pull off this combo? And how much do they cost? Compared to the cost of the units killed.

[coredump]

Lets keep rumors in the rumors thread please...

[harkonighost]

Get 2 broods of warriors and arm one of them with devourers and a barbed strangler and give another brood death spitters and a venom cannon and see which one you prefer

[WestRider]

Jun 28, 2012 6:59:26 GMT harkonighost said:

Get 2 broods of warriors and arm one of them with devourers and a barbed strangler and give another brood death spitters and a venom cannon and see which one you prefer

Did that. I cut off the Venom Cannon and changed it to a Barbed Stranger after a couple dozen Games.