What would it take for you to play X ?

[fragile]

Was thinking about what changes to units in the game it would take before someone would "want" to play it and have a fair shot at being worth its points. Alot of the lists I see on here are very similar and most of the "suggestions" for people posting lists are the same So, what would you change about a model before you would seriously consider it without changing its point cost..

For example.

Carnifex. This poor guy suffered. What used to be a terror on the board is now bleh. His role as a close combat terror has been replaced by the Trygon and his BS makes range attacks subpar. While he has a tremendous Strength, its mitigated by a poor WS with means that in CC he will always be at a disadvantage and with I-1, he will probably die to power weapons, etc in the first serious engagement. So I figure, lets make him stick around a bit. He used to be the hardest thing out there to kill, so lets change his toughness to 8. This still doesnt inspire terror so he needs a bit more. Lets change Bio Plasma to Template instead of blast. This fits nicely with is fluff and would give anyone near him reason to want it dead quickly.

Lictors. The invisible assassin Tyranid. His abilities are totally shot down by not being able to assault the turn he arrives. Given this I would change him to similiar to the Ymgarls (without the terrain restriction). Making him able to assault on arrival from Reserves would make him highly playable.

Pyrovore. How about making his Flame Spurt, Assault 2? Two shots with a template weapon would put him high on the kill quickly lists.


Anyone else have some thoughts on this ?

[vecuu]

I'd run the Harpy if it was T6 with a 4+

Maybe...

[masterofillusion]

Give tyrant warp field, make carnifex beast so it can actually keep up with the vehicles, and give at least one of our monstrous creatures a toughness higher than 6.

[Space is pretty big]

Lictor, if homing beacon worked the turn he arrived.

With a working homing beacon, he could double team with the Mawloc and be a major hit squad.
Without it he's effectively useless, as you might as well use the elite slot for anti tank, and the points for warriors or something of equal power threat that comes with less catches.

[nurglitch]

I like the Carnifex. I've found it very effective in combination with other units. Ditto for Lictors and Pyrovores. I think the issue with less popular units is that they tend to work best in combination with other, less-popular units, and with more difficult (yet more rewarding) tactics.

[greatescape13]

I remember 2nd edition where the Carnifex had TEN WOUNDS. That would make me field a few more of them. They might be smaller than some of the other MC's, but 10 wounds would make them seem like they could take a huge amount of punishment and keep coming. That would be about right for his low-ish toughness, 3+ armor, and massive points cost.

Like you said, Lictors that could assault on the turn they arrive, like the should be able to do.

Warriors in a world where Synapse again prevented instant death. They're a great unit, but not over-powered. But insta-kills make them far less desirable.

Cheers.

[nurglitch]

Yeah, they had W10 back when most heavy weapons caused multiple wounds. Assault Cannons, if I recall correctly, caused D10 wounds per hit, with a potential 9 hits. Context is important here.

Consider how many wounds a Carnifex with Feel No Pain and Cv5+ should take from a unit of Long Fangs. In fact, let's make it easy and consider that six Krak missiles hit the beast. Two of those should be negated by the cover, and two of those by Feel No Pain. So twelve Krak Missiles to fell a single Carnifex seems kind of reasonable.

I think the question that people should be asking themselves is not what it would take for them to play with a certain unit, but why those units might be the way that they are. Once you figure out the reason a unit was written the way it is.

Take the Tyranid Elite section, for example. Beyond the odd Mycetic Spore they're all specialists without any capacity to customize them. There's some overlap, but all fill different roles, and in filling those roles they do different things.

Once you make the standards by which you're judging units explicit, it's easier to determine what the author was thinking, and hence how to get the most out of the less obvious units.

[gauntlet]

To allow me to take more of the rare units and biomorphs
Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Lictors, StrangleWebs, Shooty Warriors, Horde Army Lists,
I have hastily and without much consideration to balance, concocted the following changes to allow more alternatives for anti-mech. I'd be willing to pay for these anti-vehicle upgrades, but at least I'd be able to build around the lack of sterotypical 6 Hive Guard and 2 Trygons.

In particular see rant about Pyrovore.

Also it's not just about the units abilities but what Force Organisation slot they fill. Particularly the freeing up of Elites.

Biovore: See Spore Mine
Broodlord: (wishlisting here - Patriarch HQ unlocks Genestealer Cult mini dex and Coven vehicles.)
Carnifex: Armoured Shell ( and increased probability to hit against vehicles by some type of charging/ramming).
Deathleaper: See Lictor
The Doom of Malan'tai: See Zoanthrope, Synapse. FAQ = Material cover and vehicals do no block Psychic areas of effects.
Gargoyle: no change
Genestealer: no change
Harpy: no change
Hive Guard: ( Only the passage of time will diminish the feeling that they are a blantant money grabbing exercise, and the reason for nerfs on old units. ) See also changes to Tyrant Guard
Hive Tyrant: no change ( maybe Wings allow Gargoyles to become troops, because I've also moved alot of other Elites and Heavies to fill Fast Attack).
Hormagaunt: no change
Lictor: Fast Attack and uses Ymgarl Hibernation and so Pheromone Trail in effect at start of Turn 1 .
Mawloc: Fast Attack. models caught beneath 'Terror from the Deep' blast can be assaulted this turn.
Mycetic Spore: Dedicated Transport, and Toughness 5 and can draw units and vehicles into assault using Grappling Tentacles (similar to Dreadnought Magna-Grapple)
Old One Eye: See Carnifex
The Parasite of Motrex: points reduction
Pyrovore: Monstrous creature,
see this link for explanation
thetyranidhive.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Tactics&thread=31240&page=4#559927

Ravener: options for Adrenal and Toxin, for themed poison lists and anti-vehicle. Can also take Strangle Web, See Termigant.
Ripper Swarm: Appendage of the Hive Mind rule = Rippers within Synapse can hold objectives.
Sky-Slasher Swarm: no change
Spore Mine: Bio Acid = +2D6 vs vehicles, (Maybe toxin to allow poision themed list.)
The Swarmlord: no change
Termigant: Strangle Web. Counts as Grenades during assault. Shooting vs vehicles, penetration roll of 6, automatically gums up a vehicle sensor or fire point. Same as crew shaken or if a walker then a weapon temporarily disabled.
Tervigon: Brood Overlord rule: If taken as HQ then separate units of Termigants can merge together during the game. Each model retains it's biomorphs. (this will allow Gaunt Horde to compete against all Mech during Kill point games.)
Trygon: Fast Attack. Subterranean Assault can assault vehicles from Deep Strike.
Before game, reserve units can be designated as arriving via tunnel.
Trygon Prime: HQ, See Trygon (maybe allow Raveners to become troops)
Tyranid Warrior: Eternal Warrior, Can also take StrangleWeb -See Termigant.
Warrior Prime: See Tyranid Warrior, can share Dedicated Transport and take Wings.
Tyranid Shrike: See Tryanid Warrior
Tyrant Guard: Can take Impaler Cannon
Tyrannofex: no change (a more biological re-style of for rupture cannon both model sculpt and fluff would persuade me to buy one. e.g. I love the Acid Spray model.)
Venomthrope: causes balistic range reduction similar to Night Fighting.
Ymgarl Genestealer: no change
Zoanthrope: Heavy Support

An simple alternative would be to only allow fixed biomorph species such as Pyrovores, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes, Hive Guard, Biovores as upgrades (symbiotes) to other units that have variable biomorphs. But I don't think it fits the current fluff.

[DarkGuard]

IMO the Carnifex just needs to be cheaper. Even with cover and/or FnP it can go down quickly to focussed firepower. Less points for and that's less of an investment that you lose, and you can add more Carnifexen as well.

I think all the Lictor needs is a less prevalent mech edition, maybe his homing beacon working on the turn he lands as well.

[biomassbob]

For me to take a tervigon I want to see spinegaunts be the same cost as termagants and be spawnable from the beast. Hormagaunts (with an appropriate point increase if necessary for the tervigon) should be spawnable as well. That might be enough, but I would also like to see the hive tyrant have access to the tervigon psychic powers. Tervigon is a good unit in the dex but for me it represents everything wrong with how our dex was done and I dislike them immensely.

[fragile]

Jun 4, 2012 14:58:38 GMT nurglitch said:

Consider how many wounds a Carnifex with Feel No Pain and Cv5+ should take from a unit of Long Fangs. In fact, let's make it easy and consider that six Krak missiles hit the beast. Two of those should be negated by the cover, and two of those by Feel No Pain. So twelve Krak Missiles to fell a single Carnifex seems kind of reasonable.

While I understand your point in your post, and inherently agree. I would point out that this example above demonstrates part of the idea of this topic. In order for a FNP and 5+ cover save, you would reasonably have to bring in a Tervigon and a Venomthrope unit. Thats 215 points more to make a Carnifex "reasonable" for an already costly unit. Perhaps just giving the Carnifex FNP ( or all MC's for that matter) would be a easier balance.

I think the question that people should be asking themselves is not what it would take for them to play with a certain unit, but why those units might be the way that they are. Once you figure out the reason a unit was written the way it is.

Take the Tyranid Elite section, for example. Beyond the odd Mycetic Spore they're all specialists without any capacity to customize them. There's some overlap, but all fill different roles, and in filling those roles they do different things.

Once you make the standards by which you're judging units explicit, it's easier to determine what the author was thinking, and hence how to get the most out of the less obvious units.

True but knowing the purpose and having that purpose be useful in game is two different things.

[nurglitch]

fragile:

The design of the Tyranid army is that the units work together so that the army is greater than the sum of its parts.

The Venomthrope, for example, can provide cover to both the Carnifex and the Tervigon. Its Lash Whips can be used to mitigate those monstrous creature's I1, the Tervigon can prevent them from being charged first by spawning Termagants, and the Carnifex can smash stuff.

Knowing the purpose of a unit is useful because that indicates how the unit is useful in the game. Knowing how the unit performs in the game is also useful, but purpose and utility aren't exclusive, and these properties inform each other.

[jocke01]

The thing with the all our MCs not just carnifex is that they got a point increase and not able to get better T, W or 2+ save (expect ground tyrant for 40p) while high strength, ap3 and poison weapons have become more common and cheaper to field.

Also why would u want to use the carnifex, I mean if you want a CC monster trygon is more durable and faster, and if you want a gun platform you got tyrannofex and support you got tervigon. It just seams they designed new versions of the carnifex as diffirent units instead of using the carnifex as a base build with diffirent uppgrades like the last codex but they put the carnifex in there anyway with a higher point cost and less customising options.

I think if you want to just uppdate the carnifex to be usable, drop 40 point from it, uppgrade it's living battering ram rule so it adds + attack power in some way so it actually becomes a living battering ram and give it the option to increase T and armor save for points, or possible keep the same point cost but start with t7 and 2+ save making it a more compact powerhouse instead of a nerfed down trygon on legs.

[Psychichobo]

MASSIVE POINT DECREASE.

Most of if not all of our MC's could do with being much, much cheaper. That alone would give us a lot more punch, since it allows us to simply field more of our big nasties in the same way other armies spam vehicles. If the Fex was 100 points he'd be a lot more appealing, especially if his guns were cheaper too. As for the Harpy, his big fragile butt would be easier to handle if it cost little enough. And the Tyrant? Oh yush.

[Evex]

The models were given to me for free, unassembled, unopened.

And if Lictors could do something the turn the showed up. Perhaps a Special Rule to make it difficult to hit them at first? Or just a complete re-haul. Others have made good suggestions.