New ideas for Tyranids (check this out, Cruddace!)

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Hello Hive, I hope you are all well.

A classic deadlock some people tend to use when their work is being criticized is the "Well, can you do better?"-reply. Despite this being a somewhat spiteful fallacy, it does beg a good question: would anyone here on the Hive be capable of writing a better codex than Robin Aw-Cruddace?

So when posting in the ranting-thread, I realised the duality of ranting: knowing what it (the codex) shouldn't be like, BUT also knowing what it should be like.

So here it is, folks, the thread where you can share all of your ideas of how the Tyranid army should work and function. This isen't limited to rules only, fluff ideas are welcome as well!

Remember that while Cruddace might have done a terrible job, giving Termagants Power Armor and introducing S9 AP1 blasts to Warriors isen't the way to solve things. The longer you've been playing Tyranids and the more you've read the (good) fluff, the more aware you should be of the Tyranids' strengths and weaknesses.

I'll start:

1. Versatility
One of the things that bugged me with the new codex was the lack of versatility. Most Tyranid lists look much a like, which is a shame. With a few extra rules you could make the Tyranid player have a lot more options on his hands:

"In an army that features a winged Hive Tyrant, Gargoyles count as Troops-choices.

Wham. The Tyranid army just got a lot more diverse and compatible with themed armies.

2. Move Through Cover
Just about every unit in the Tyranid army has Move Through Cover. That's cool, but why not go all the way and give it to those who were left out? Ie, Warriors, Hive Guards and Biovores?

"Due to the ever-adapting Hive Mind, Tyranids are perfectly designed to wage war in any environment. Bearing no less than three pair of limbs, a Tyranid organism will be able to advance at a terrifying rate, either through locomotion, flying or simply smashing its way through ruins and densely forrested areas. As a result, all Tyranid units have the 'Move Through Cover' special rule as described in the Rulebook."

There, Tyranids just got themselves a universal Special Rule. Was it necessary? Not per se. Could we do without? Obviously yes, since this is the case as of now. But it does feel nice and fluffy to have every unit in the codex advance at a decent rate. Imagine some guy who is new to the hobby asking you: "So what's special about Tyranids?" other than telling him that they have no vehicles, they all have Move Through Cover as well! Seeing as most (if not all) Dark Eldar units have Fleet and Space Wolves have Counter-attack and Acute Senses, giving all Tyranid units MTC doesn't seem to be out of place or overpowered.

3. Fixing the broken
I haven't read the Webway Portal rules to Dark Eldar, but as far as I can tell, it works pretty well. Obviously the Trygon's tunnel-thing would have to be slightly, if not completely rewritten in order to be a worthwhile investment. I imagine that you could assign one or more infantry units to arrive from the Subterranean Assault-marker, without of the risk of having to foot-slog them across the board because of poor Reserve rolls.

Pyrovores. I don't where to start with these guys. If I were to write a new codex, I'd probably leave them out in the cold, seeing as they are a bit to single-purpose to be interesting and useful. I mean, a walking flamer? I had this idea of having it act as a "pack hound" to Warriors, but then again why not just drop the model and give Warriors the option of taking a Flamespurt cannon? Let me hear what you'd do to fix the poor Pyrovore.

Anyway, that's all I can think of right now. I look forward to read your suggestions and ideas!

[Xantige]

Forgive me if I come off sounding too general or silly. I've not been around for countless editions and I don't play often or even well, but here's my two cents...

Give our models Assault grenades. Or at least the ones with Move Through Cover. It seems silly that our bugs can whip through cover with amazing agility... but suddenly become slow and bumbling if they have to move through cover to assault something. I'd just state it somewhere in the book, that do to how nimble these models are, they fight at their initiative when assaulting in or through cover.

[Rakuall]

I'd like to see a native Invulnerable Save on all synapse and monstrous creatures. As it is, we fall prey far too easily to missile spam, but if all SC had a 5+ and all MC a 6+, I think we'd hold our ground a little better.

5+:
- Flyrant no longer quite as fragile for the lack of Tyrant Guard.
- Tervigon no longer likely to drop in a single shooting phase.
- Warriors have a shot at not dieing in droves.
Shrikes no longer shredded by bolter fire.
6+:
- Harpy Has a shot against bolter fire.
- Carnifex not as easy to drop with a single devastator squad.
- Mawloc might see a bit more use.

I'm with Xant on the Grenades, and like what I.S. said in 1 and 3. Not everyone having MTC makes sense to me, a 10-12 foot Warrior is to large to move nimbly among cover, and too small to rampage through it as an MC might. Perhaps it would add to balance though, so I'm not against the idea.

[Inquisitor Stingray]

I agree, the lack of Frag Grenades is strange and a problem for many players. It is also highly ironic that the three units who can take Frag Grenades or equivalent are rarely used, id est the Carnifex, the Lictor and the Harpy.

Back in 4th Edition the Psychic Power Catalyst had another effect than now. Back then a unit induced by the power would be able to strike back, even if they were effectively killed before being able to do so. I have often thought about making the Tyranid Prime a Psyker and give him this Psychic Power, obviously renaming it to avoid confusion with the Tervigon power.

[rpricew]

Along with the idea of unlocking the force Org chart and themed armies. Send the Broodlord back to HQ and give him back his power weapons and something like Alien Cunning. This way stealer shock would be more thematic.

Shadow In The Warp should cover the board, or at least stack if the range stayed the same. Add a D3 for every additional Tyranid Synapse model/unit in range.

I don't think we need assault grenades so much. I think the point of us being able to take such large broods (most assaulty units can have 20-30 wounds each) is it should absorb most counter attacks if you run your broods large enough. If I charge a 30 man brood of Hormagaunts into cover, they usually lose some and then punish whatever they hit.

The thing I think we suffer from more is reliable suppression units while we advance. Tyranid fluff describes endless waves of critters overwhelming enemy gunlines with bodies over bullets.

[WestRider]

Oh, I've got a million of them. Doing all of these together is blatantly impossible, as several contradict each other, and taking too many would probably swing things too far the other way, but I think that pretty much all of these are individually viable.

Codex Organization:
- Move Genestealers and Warriors to Elites (bear with me here)
- Taking a Prime moves Warriors to Troops
- Add an HQ: Genestealer Patriarch. Something even nastier, tougher, and meaner than the 4th Ed Broodlord. Taking one of those moves Stealers to Troops.
- Tyrant with Wings moves Gargoyles to Troops.
- For every Warrior Brood taken, you may take one Brood of Termagants without using up a Troops Slot. You still have to burn a Troops Slot on a Gaunt Brood to move a Tärv to Troops, but otherwise these are exactly the same as normal Gaunts.

Weapon Fixes:
(Heavy and regular) Venom Cannon: Assault 2 instead of Blast
DeathSpitters: Assault 2, 24" Range
MC DeathSpitters: Assault 4, S6, AP5, 24" Range
StrangleWeb: 1 in 5 Gaunts may take one, 5 Points each, S3
Spike Rifles and Spinefists: Free swap from Fleshborer
Stinger Salvo: Twin-Linked
Crushing Claws: +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table

FAQ Reversals/Changes:
- Let Hive Commander stack with itself (both parts), and make it, Alien Cunning, and Pheromone Trail optional.
- Venomthrope Spore Clouds trigger Assaulting Through Cover
- Disallow Cover Saves against Terror from the Deep, and Psychic Scream.
- Let Tyranid Primes Join Units in Spores, and let Spores drop empty.

Unit Fixes/Reworks:
- Move Through Cover: On a Roll of 6 (Or maybe 5 or 6) for Difficult Terrain during an Assault Move, a Unit with Move Through Cover ignores the Assaulting into Cover penalty
- Raveners can purchase Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs at Warrior Pricing
- Lots of ideas for Genestealers. I'd like to see them end up around 20-25 Points per Model, and worth it. Stealth, 3 Attacks, and a return to S6 are all possibilities
- Copy/Paste the Warrior options into the Shrike entry
- Synaptic Link, 25 Point Tyrant Upgrade: Tyrants often go to war with Warriors cultured from their own genetic material. These Warriors have a much stronger connection to the Hive Mind than usual. Could work at least two ways: Warriors in a list with a Synaptic Link Tyrant have their Synapse and Shadow in the Warp range increased to 15" or 18" OR any Unit between the Synaptic Link Tyrant and a Warrior is in Synapse and SitW.
- Tyranid Primes can purchase Wings for 20 Points. If they do so, their Armour Save is reduced to 4+ and their Alpha Warrior Rule affects Shrikes instead of Warriors.
- Psychic Scream/The Horror/Indescribable Horror: The Ld Test for all these powers is taken at -2, even if the Unit in question is Stubborn.
- Venomthropes: T5 and/or Stealth
- Carnifex: Inhuman Toughness: 4+ Invul Save OR reduce base cost to 130 Points or so.
- T-Fex: BS4. Also add Defensive Pheromones: Any friendly Tyranid Unit Engaged in the same Combat as a T-Fex gains Preferred Enemy.
- Rippers: Move them outside the FOC entirely. Add Eternal Warrior (I think that all Swarms should actually have Eternal Warrior. The Instant Death Rules just don't make sense for them.)
- Change Onslaught into a Power used during the Shooting Phase rather than a Psychic Shooting Attack.
- Decrease Hormagaunts to 5 Points per Model.

The Pyrovore gets its own heading:
- Add Fleet
- May Run and then fire the Flamespurt
- Yes, those last two points stack
- Increase base Attacks to 3
- Increase Strength to 5
- Move to Fast Attack
- Tweak Points Cost

[zephoid]

my codex covers all the changes i would like to see. look in my sig to find it

took a lot of the ideas covered in this thread along with a bunch of others. One thing that needs to change in 6th. Nids should NEVER have unique characters. When i say that i mean no Doom; specific to one world and is radically different from what it would mutate from. Instead, OOE, red terror, or something of the like that is a legendary mutation from the base model. Its special abilities derive from its size, strength, or its tactics. Deathleaper isnt bad, but the reference to its scars and such makes it too specific of a creature. These should be creatures that could be seen in any battle, but are still incredibly rare.

[kurbutti]

WestRider has some good thoughts and I've even came up with similar ideas myself, especially regarding Move Through Cover.

We'll see soon enough whether our codex truly was written "6th edition in mind". Cruddace deserves the benefit of the doubt I guess.

[cookies]

I think the only thing nids need to become balanced is practical anti-tank options in any slot. This does not include rupture cannon, heavy venom cannon, twin linked brainleech devouerers, or assaulting with monstrous creatures. So, in order to have this, I suggest:

1. Heavy venom cannon is assault 3 instead of blast.

2. Every monstrous creature is at least WS 4 and BS 4.

3. Warriors have the equivalent of a lascannon replacing regular venom cannon.

4. Shrikes and raveners get rending claws for free.

5. Carnifex is, say, 50 points cheaper.

I believe this five changes would make us a viable tournament army. We now in every slot have some anti-tank, which is where nids suffer. We have no lack of anti-infantry at all, we just suffer against tanks and have none of our own.

[Jabberwocky]

While there are loads of changes I'd love, I don't feel I need them.

Allowing the Pryrovore a second shooting option could work. Assault 1 12" S6 AP1 melta. Fits the fluff and not too powerful. With that, acid maw and acid blood, it's not bad for taking on terminators.

[housecawdor]

A few things I'd like to see:
Eternal warrior for synapse creatures instead of invulnerable saves,
The return of 'extended carapace (+1 to your save),
Your attacks and strength affecting the way your weapons fire (maybe),
Flesh hooks being assault grenades again,
Lictor's ambush enabling it to assault on the turn it deep strikes,
pyrovores having higher weapon skill,
Invulnerable saves for hive tyrants/tervigons.
I think this would go some way to 'fixing' the codex.

[grarik]

One suggestion to make our monstrous creatures a bit more resilient; instead of regneration giving us the ability to regain wound at a later point, make it similar to the fantasy version, an additional save, say a 5+ or 6+, taken after a failed armour save similar to a feel no pain save, except it cant be ignored.

another option would be to allow a model with regeneration 1 chance per game of getting up if it gets killed, if it passes the save, it gets back up with 1 wound, with all other wound being capable of regenerating the following turn.

[warischoy]

I think feel no pain should come as standard for tyranid MC. I mean fluff wise they can't be bogged down too much by just small.arms fire. Possibly an invuln for SC. Warp field on the hive tyrant as an upgrade.
Moving trygon/mawloc to fast attack and hive guard to heavy support.

Gargoyles as troops with flyrant.
Keep broodlord as upgrade.
Warrior venom cannon a brightlance equalivant.
Heavy venom cannon as a long range multmelta equalivant.
Gants 4 point each and hormagaunt 5 point each.
Drop the pyrovore.
Carnifex with 2+ save standard toughness 7
Venomthrope with T5 and a dark eldar decrease enemy range rule.
Tyrant guard to 40 point each. Armourshell to 30 points. Wings to 40 points.
Bonesword as force weapon or increase shadow in the warp range.

[nalathani]

To comment on other peoples ideas first:

I like the idea of unlocking troop choices with HQ's. Flyrants for gargs, primes for shrikes (if primes could get wings), genestealer patriarchs for genestealers (if they got tougher and made elites).

I very much dislike the idea of invuln saves. Nids are organic, not magical. Zoans should be the only exception to the rule. If we need more resiliancy, make regen better, or make our stuff cheaper so we can put more bodies on the table.

I do like the universal move through cover rule. One of the reasons warriors are such a sub-par choice is how stupid slow they are. No fleet, and no move through cover, means they cover about 8 inches per move with runs. It takes them 4 turns to reach close combat.

I like the Pyrovore having a melta option...its not against the things fluff, and it would help us out a ton (and help out the Pyrovore too!).

[Inquisitor Stingray]

Great ideas, guys. I much enjoy reading your suggestions.

I very much dislike the idea of invuln saves. Nids are organic, not magical. Zoans should be the only exception to the rule. If we need more resiliancy, make regen better, or make our stuff cheaper so we can put more bodies on the table.

Well, to be fair, an Invulnerable Save is not bound to be a force field or a magic barrier. In fact, the rulebook suggests that Invulnerable Saves can also be represented through "alien metabolism", id est regeneration or similiar.