The 5th edition rumors are real

[graveaccomplice]

We had a LGS do a test of their own. As far as they can tell, the leaked rules benefit gunlines more then anything else. They hunker down in a corner and uuse the area terrain (that they can now shoot though) as barbed wired. It slows your advance while they gun down your screen.


It is admittedly a single playtest. Everyone agrees that we'll need to wait and see.

[coff]

Well seeing as the release of 3rd edition was the death knell of the hobby for me after Tyranids got a 3 year waiting period before their codex was updated (I didn't really get back in until 4th had already been released), I see 5th edition as bad news. If what you say is true we will get the next edition before Necrons, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Witch Hunters, Daemon Hunters even get their own codex. How much of a priority do you think Tyranids will be? Remember that Dark Eldar were released with the 3rd edition boxed set? Yea, where is their 4th edition codex again? That's probably a poor example since they weren't that popular or particularly pretty models but one thing is guaranteed, Space Marines will no doubt get the gold mine, all others will get the shaft.

[flyingspoon]

to be fair the new codices (spelling mistake?) have made the game run alot smoother as you know who gets what I'm not actually keen on them though but then again this is me and I like traditon over innovation I'm the kind of guy who would shave with a straight razor if given the chance but we'll have to wait and see what the new rules have to offer as it has been said by a few staff members at my local shop it's more of a 4.5 than a reworking of the rules

[Enigma]

coredump: What I meant is, the models can really be in any pose. The pathfinders with rail rifles prove that. Some kneel, some lie down, and others just stand. Same with any space marines or guardsmen. They won't always be standing straight up. They will lean left and right, crouch or lie down etc. From the eye on the minature, that isn't very realistic because otherwise, the pathfinders would have the lying one screwed because the smallest rock or hill would block vision! And same with winged warriors and tyrants. They will land eventually, and then they will be lower, their head and eyes will be lower too. In *real* life, people aren't static, so neither should the representation be.

[Biowraith]

I havent really seen any of the neew rules, and only hered rumore, can you guys say what the planed changes will achally be. But from what i have heard it will suck for all tyrinid players.

[koran]

But at the same time in my mind the reason the heavy weapons died last was not because the others almost jumped in the way of any incomming bullets The way I saw it was that, yes the guy with the lascannon died, but the person next to him didnt go, "Oh look at the really powerful gun just laying on the floor... Oh theres a tank over there... Oh well, on I go with my bolter." No, they'd pick the gun of the dead guy up and use it. Come on, they aint stupid.

[Hyper Kinetic]

I don't know... Marines seem to think that they can hold back an entire Tyranid Planetary Invasion Force with just 1000 men... that reeks of stupidity to me (or at least supreme self-confidence)

Anyhew... The way that Koran describes it is pretty much how the current rulebook describes the removing casualties process (i.e. They pick up the weapons of the fallen as they advance).
I don't mind the way that this is turning out (though this is mainly because most of the Tyranid army has all the same model types within it... ). I'd like to see a 4+ roll for anyone who wants to keep a special weapon's model. You pass, you remove another model instead (it could be assumed that the weapon was picked up by someone as their comrade fell... or, in the case of Tyranids, there was focussed fire on another individual). Fail, and there goes the special weapon (it could be assumed that it was damaged when the unfortunate sucker carrying it was hit). It might balance it out a bit better, though could slow the game down somewhat if you hit a squad lots of mixed weapon types (though rolling for each model does that well enough already...).

[koran]

I think the majority of the changes balance each other out.... For most armies the squad isnt what is scary, its a few men within it (sergents in CC or heavy/special weapons), the new rules affect both shooting units and CC units because they "important" part of the unit has a chance of dying. The only thing this wouldnt affect is units where all the models are scary at shooting or CC, and I dont think there are many shooting units like that. The CC units that are like that are normally like that because the whole unit has rending (stealers or harliquins) so the slight toning down of rending means that they dont stay as powerfull while other CC units have lost some of their potential. I think thats fair.

It also means that people will stop with the mimimum squad sizes with a beafed up sergent, they will want to take more in the unit so that it will take more shooting before a wound is asgined to the character/squad leader.... All in all good stuff and it balences itself out nicely.

[coredump]

This isn't much of a change from the torrent of fire rule.
An 8 man Tac squad, with a lascannon, still will need 8 shots before the lascannon needs to make a save.
Except with the new rules, even the pfist sgt and the plasma gun guy also will need to make saves.

But I am not sure how much this may slow making the rolls...

[Shas'o Tash'var Kais Pat]

I doubt they will do to much to make special weapons guys easier to kill, as that would make such weapons less effective, and thus mean that a reduce of the points costs of such weapons would be required

[koran]

See, because it balances out across the board (see my above post) I dont think it will require a points drop because it affects all armies.

And I think it is pretty different as the torrent of fire only affects one model.

For example, you shoot a guard unit of ten men with a sarg, plasma gun and lascannon ten times. IN the torrent of fire rules you can asigne ONE of the shots to someone specific(probably the lascannon). In the new rules one shot is asgined to the sarg, one to the plasma and one to the lascannon... I dont know but Id say that makes a HUGE difference.

[scytale]

koran said:

But at the same time in my mind the reason the heavy weapons died last was not because the others almost jumped in the way of any incomming bullets The way I saw it was that, yes the guy with the lascannon died, but the person next to him didnt go, "Oh look at the really powerful gun just laying on the floor... Oh theres a tank over there... Oh well, on I go with my bolter." No, they'd pick the gun of the dead guy up and use it. Come on, they aint stupid.

Maybe not because not every marine is trained in using a heavy weapon, be it lascannon or whatever, (this point becomes even more obvious with Imperial Guard ) and if you ever looked at heavy weapon guys more closely, marines have bacpack specific to the heavy weapon (lascannon with the wires, heavy bolter with the ammo belt and so on) and well...lascannon without the powersource that is in the marine's back is pretty much useless. ;D

Chaos on the other hand don't carry ammo for heavy weapons in their backpack so my argument fails there, but I still say that if someone's shooting with a weapon for a few hundred or thousand years (time flows differently in the warp), his average hit ratio would be a bit different to a guy who picked a heavy weapon in the heat of battle and started searching for the trigger.

[Assimilator]

Well i have only ben in the 40k for not even a year! they are redesigning? ( Falls back in chair highly annoyed )

[Enigma]

scytale~ Marines can think better than "normal" people. They find the trigger, and aim just as well. Just because you have a lascannon, doesn't mean you aren't skilled with a bolter, as all marines are skilled with bolters, even devastators. As for the ammo, they are strong enough to just drag along the injured or dead marine with them, or to rip off the pack and drag that around. As for the guard, the lascannons only come on vechiles or in heavy weapon teams, which, if killed, can just let new guardsmen lie down in front of it. All their carried weapons are easy to use and take. As for the other armies, it is relatively the same thing. For tyranids... uh, I dunno how you avoid taking away that venom cannon, but it must happen somehow... possibly jumping, tyranids are fast. I dunno...

[scytale]

I see. So they are so superhumanly strong that draging a dead comrade along doesn't slow them down? If they were so strong, why would they need power plants on their back to help the move the armour they're in? Ripping the pack of a dead comrade is...well insane in my eyes. Firstly that is time consuming, as marine backpack are not sticked to they backs with PVA or superglue and are as much as part of the armour as chestplate or a boot.

As for the point of skilled with weapons...I agree they're all skilled with bolters, never said anything against it but i disagree that they're all skilled with heavy weapons. If that would be the case, why would heavy weapons SPECIALISTS (they're refered to as such) need additional training?

But ok, let's asume they are fanatical to the point of insanity and throw themselves in the way of incoming fire to protect the heavy weapon bearing breathern from falling (even though I failed to see such an example anywhere till now).

How do you explain vindicare assassin's ability to target a single model, resulting in his removal? Why doesn't someone else pick the heavy weapon then? Does the assassin also fire a bullet in the weapon, disabling it?

And even if that all is explainable, the guardsmen are not nearly as fanatical (or stupid in my point of view) to throw themselves into the incoming fire. That's more commonly associated with Tau. So the loss of heavy weapon specialists is inevitable for them, eh? Ask your opponent once, if he would shoot at your heavy or just a normal trooper if he could choose.



All this points are hollow of course, because as we all know that some thing just can't be explained with common sense or laws of physics or whatever, because they're there for the sake of game balance. I mean, if you could kill the heavy weapon guy with your first shot, pretty much everyone would be playing armoured company...