Games with Levelling Systems: A bit of a Rant

[Psychichobo]

It's got its place. I mean, I used to play Phantasy Star Online. Fun as anything it was, with the most basic levelling system in the world.

Fallout's an odd one. It kind of worked, but at the same time you could spend ages blowing up radroaches and suddenly you're a master of lockpicking. Maybe making it a little more focused so you have to actually do something to be good at it.

Oblivion's only problem was a few exploits that kind of ruined stuff. Like the skeleton key, rendering an entire lockpicker's levelling completely redundant. And how you can enchant your armour with chameleon to become permanently invisible...



I gotta say though, I always enjoyed the 2D Castlevania system, like with Circle of the Moon and Portrait of Ruin. Nothing more than whacking things to get EXP for stat boosts, but since it was basically a proper platformer that demanded skill, it often meant you weren't just relying on having higher stats to win.

[coff]

I love this thread. Thank you Hyper Kinetic.

I agree heartily. As someone who has been playing D&D since 2nd ed (among oodles of other RPGs) the level based skill system has always baffled me.

I've taken it upon myself to write my own variation on 3.5/Pathfinder rules that is entirely feat based and requires specialization.

That aside, reaching level 10 as a Rogue and deciding that, since the DM threw a bunch of traps in the last encounter for the first time in the campaign, you will take all of your 8+Int skill points in Disable Trap. This may seem reactionary and even slightly flavorful since you've recently had some experience, but it defies logic. No one goes through life never being able to pick any lock to all of the sudden being able to crack safes.

Please more RPG rule rants. I can always use fresh perspectives on how to best build a system. (I've also got a few rants in myself).

+1 HK for thread-fu.

[Hyper Kinetic]

Apr 23, 2011 7:41:58 GMT zephoid said:

REALLY wish that games were more like this, but then no one would have any numbers to wave their e-Gentleman Parts around with.

Well... with this sort of system for RPG types, your numbers suddenly become a lot bigger.
From "Level 20 Fireball" to "My fireball does over 9000."

coff
Woohoo! I have the Thread Fu!
I'm sure I can think of other things... this was just the thing that was bothering me most in recent times. I'll work other stuff out later

Rant away, I am sure that we can all relate, or at least discuss, at length

One thing that I did not mention in my initial post, but that Coff has touched on, is that Pen and Paper systems often use a levelling system. Again, this is a good thing in some respects as it is much easier to keep track of what sort of actions you can perform.
However, the problem arises when transferred to computer systems. It's just too easy (and boring) to use the same style system and so people keep using it.

Back to pen and paper systems...
Similarly to how Coff has put it, there is always the temptation to dump a whole lot of points in to a skill when necessary.
Again, a flawed system.
One way to get around it would be to limit just how much can be dumped in to an area per level.
In the case that Coff has put to us, perhaps a limitation X points per level plus a little extra if your class has a specialisation related to that category.
If you have to have a levelling system, then there ought to be limitations so excessive points dumping can not happen. It leads to one dimensional characters.... boring.

[wisdomseyes1]

Anyone played Valkyria Chronicles?

their leveling system is actually quite similar to the, "put points into certain skills and become better" type of thing...

Though, the experience you earn is only taken into account when you go to the training field and the instructors beat the skill into you... but still ;D

_{Such a great game... everyone should play it...}

[The Tomato]

Boy, would you have hated Guild Wars?

Not only are you placing points as you level up, at any given time when standing in an outpost you can relocate those points to some other dicipline...

"I've finaly mastered the art of death magic... Now lets shift that around to beastmastery and curses"

I love that game ^^

[Psychichobo]

Funnily, I think one of the best games for levelling systems was FF Tactics Advance.

Basically, you could swap to any class at any time outside of combat with characters. However, you had to spend time using a particular item that gave you access to a spell/ability, before you learned it permanently.
Also, your stats would improve in specific areas depending on your current class. If you've been a beserker, you'll have high attack, but low magic. You swap to a mage, you'll still have those same stats. However, as you begin levelling up as a mage you begin to accrue more increases in your magic stat instead.

I learnt this the hard way. Had a level 25 Soldier in my team, decided I needed more White Mages as I kept sending them off for various request missions. So I made him one - staff, robes, the works. First battle I took a critical hit, got him to heal me.

16 hp healed. Uh-oh.

Then the enemy closed in, and I sent him out to have a go, miffed at his newbie status. He then promptly beat two of them to death with his mage staff in no time.


Basically, games like that I liked, as it stopped you from just picking and choosing without consequence. You have to train someone in a respective area extensively.

[Deathnid]

Apr 22, 2011 9:11:00 GMT Trygon said:

I am a level 64 Minecrafter.

all 5 of us loled

[tedstea]

i love to level it is so satisfying!!

[Trygon]

^Who is this wise guy?^

[hive fleet pandora]

imitator.

i would kill him now trygon.

[Hyper Kinetic]

Apr 27, 2011 8:14:54 GMT The Tomato said:

Boy, would you have hated Guild Wars?

Not only are you placing points as you level up, at any given time when standing in an outpost you can relocate those points to some other dicipline...

"I've finaly mastered the art of death magic... Now lets shift that around to beastmastery and curses"

I love that game ^^

I've got to be honest, I didn't mind Guild Wars specifically for this fact.
It meant that I did not have to restart every time I wanted to try a new player type for a specific profession/split profession.

Psychichobo
That makes sense to me (FFTacticsAdvance).

[tedstea]

Bring it Trygon i have a flesh gauntlet... umad?

[Psychichobo]

I had a flesh gauntlet once. *cries*


Thinking about pen and paper rpg's, it'd be pretty easy to correct the levelling system by having the GM dictate which stats you're allowed to improve upon levelling. Leave people options, mind, but ultimately try to gear it around their previous actions.

In one fun series of Warhammer Fantasy RP (last one that was purely pen and paper) one Elven guy hailing from a wealthy marienburg merchant family was determined to become a wizard. He travelled with the party trying to locate scrolls and learn magic rather than develop it innately.
Most people would just let him move to a wizard class. Not me! He ended up becoming a psychotic thug with strong physical stats and a fanatical obssession with magical artifacts. He enjoyed it in the end too, since it was a very home-grown character.

[Hyper Kinetic]

Nice
And that's the way to play: Don't make it easy, they have to work at it... and then it becomes something else entirely

I have a bit of a thought on the stark differences between combat and magic (as I see them, anyway), and the idea of just two sorts of "vitality stats". Oh, and the term "Mana".

Let's start with combat vs magic.
In many generic RPGs that I have encountered, the following can affect your ability in combat:
- Strength
- Agility
- Fortitude/Constitution
- Vitality
And now for your ability to cast spells/use abilities, as well as defend against them (in most cases):
- Intelligence

Often, that is it. Occasionally you might get a jink/dodge save from Agility or magic defense from Constitution, but that seems to me to be more rare than common.
Why do we have many many ways to determine whether someone has taken damage from a sword and only one way to determine how much is caused from a spell? Hell... Intelligence often dictates only that you can cast spells... not about how effective they can be.
Something should be done about that.

Which brings me to my next point.
WAY too often, I see only 2 Critical Stat bars. Health and Magic ability (and... yes, I am aware that some pen-and-papers have more depth than this, this is primarily aimed at electronic games).
Why?
Surely a player's current status (ignoring status effects) can't just be summed up by only two stat bars...
I have a possible solution: Focus.
Sure, you might be able to launch a fireball at a single guy bearing down at you when there is only one of them, but what about when 10 are wailing upon you? Want to make an effective sword slash against a lone person? That's fine.... but try doing it when there are 3 of them all intent on stabbing you a new hole.
Some RPGs have the whole "cast time" and "interruption" thing, and this is a step in the right direction, but I think it could go further.
Focus would be the new "critical" stat.
Let's take firing some form of projectile. Could be both magic or physical. You could stand there and aim at a target for a few seconds, just a moment or quite a few seconds. Each one would allow you a different probability of either hitting or, more in the magic example, dealing damage/chance of miscast. Do you have people actively trying to hurt or help you in your immediate area? This would also affect the outcome.
Sword Swingers would have a better, or worse, chance to deal criticals (or whiff the attack) depending on how focussed they are.

Now... perhaps this could tack on to the idea of an additional magic skill type thing.
How Focussed you are might determine just how effective the magic you use can be. If you have 10 goons all taking swings around you, you aren't going to be focussed enough to cast your ultimate overpowered fireball (something that typically happens in some game... hundreds of people surrounding and firing at you and you find the clarity to obliterate them easily using a spell that you just made up? Yeah... right...). Perhaps you might be able to create a large fireball but it won't be effective against many, or it might only be really good against one person.
So the Focus you have will allow you to work at a higher (or lesser) level of ability.
It might also be possible to modify it a bit to allow rapid casting of a strong spell. For example, you have lots of stronger goons surrounding you but one Overpowered Fireball might drain you of your ability to cast more spells against the stronger guys coming down the hall. Solution? Fire off the Overpowered Fireball before you are ready for full casting. You will have produced a weaker fireball that consumes everyone in the room, with enough magical ability to properly defend yourself against the stronger opponents.

Focus could also be used to determine how likely you are to land criticals on physical attacks. If you are unfocussed, like when you are surrounded, you are not as likely to meaningfully strike against someone, unless you are a monk or something, preferring to do just enough to keep them all at arms length. A highly precise blow to the head of one opponent is not as valuable when there are 9 others looking to do the same to you. Against one angry person, however, you are more likely going to be aiming for the head all the time every time.

Finally.... Mana.
Want to know where it comes from?
The Maoris of old time New Zealand used to think that killing their enemies and eating them would allow them to absorb their "mana", making them a stronger spirit.
Sounds kinda like generic experience gain... right?

[coredump]

Weeelllll......

Here is the problem, you are taking an organic multi-variable real world situation, and trying to replicate it in a consistent manner. It just isn't going to work. And anything you do will be predicated on assumptions you are making, both in how the world works, and how the players are going to interact with your world. So there will always be ways to exploit the system, or ways that the system breaks.

Leveling is stupid, you should get better by using an item.

Okay, so if you use your sword, you will get better with it. Sure, so I will find a tree, and use my sword for a couple of hours, until I am Conan.
No improvement against inanimate objects. (So, you are saying that *practicing* will not help you get better..??) Okay, so I will track down and start killing hundreds of bunny rabbits.
No improvement unless the target is dangerous. Sure, so I will track down and kill lots of house cats. They are dangerous, they can scratch.
No improvement unless the target has a reasonable chance to do serious harm to the character. Based on what? Based on some algorithm that the computer figures out. So, not for black bears, but yes for grizzlies, okay.
What if I stop using my trusted sword, and switch to the new axe? then can I get better against the brown bears? What about just a wolverine, or racoon? What if I was still using my greatly increased str to swing the axe? What if the mage cast Strength and Defense on me? Does that affect the XP? (If yes, then you stop encouraging teamwork, if no, then it makes it *real* easy to improve a new weapon.)
And what if I use the sword, but there are 5 brown bears? What if there are 5, but I fight them in a cave entrance, so only 1 at a time?


Practicing should make you better. What if my character takes 3 months off to practice, will he get better?


And lets remember, these are not meant as a reality check, they are a game. leveling is fun for a lot of people. It is like a small 'winning' of the game. You achieved a goal, and get rewards for it. It also provides an easy way to determine a relative skill level of a character and/or party. Makes it easier to determine if that brown bear should provide a chance for improvement.
And it also means you can simulate training by dumping multiple points into a skill. And you don't have to put up with doing things like Checking Traps while you really suck at it.