A new idea?

[koran]

Ok, this isnt really a new idea, Im sure its been had before but Ive never actually seen it done. And it WORKED!

Anyways... The story...

I recently became VERY bored with winning constantly without much challenge (Ok, so I play De, what did I expect but I havent ever lost a game with them and Ive been playing them for months and moneths) so I thought Id got for an army that would be more challenging to play and win.

The only problem I have is the armies I play HAVE to have character or I just hate making, painting and playing with them. And I dont like armies everyone uses

So I looked at what people didnt use much near me and came up with guard (plus I LOVE alot of their FW stuff). Now for the theme... Something to make them unique.

After alot of faffing I decided on Ordo Xenos. They dont have an army book but have deffinet coolness potencial.

Anyways this is where the kind of new idea came in. After working out a couple of armies I realised they all worked the same, mostly stand back and shoot with all units having a heavy weapons to take out marines. Oh and a leman russ or three.

Bascially I was back to the drawing bored with an army that was like alot of others. Then going through the codex again I realised that comand squads could take all four of the troopers with special weapons AND they could be put in a chimera. Im sure alot of you are thinking, oh what a shock he took four plasma guns to take out marines... BORING.

Well no, I didnt want a squad that was that many points. Having always likes sisters I decided I wanted an army that would speed up, get out and destroy with a load of fire power from just normal(ish) guns. Really like the "purge" sort of idea for the Xenos I took four flamers in the HQ unit and the troops choice comand squad, both in chimeras. Then I took an armoured fist unit, with no heavy weapons and a flamer.

This left my army (as I now had NO leman russ) with only 2 ap3 guns in the whole 1k points (two missile launchers in the normal two squads of the infantry platoon). I didnt know if it would work (relying on mass lasgun fire at close range from the armoured fist unit to take out the enemy) but I thought Id give it a try. And the amount of hits from a unit with four flamers was bound to cause a load of wounds in my eyes.

Im not saying I didnt have any cheese in my army.... I mean I saw straight away that my army was screwed against a nidzilla army, for example. So to counter that I admite I had two force weapons in it. Combining that with close order drill (its free and I would be that close when getting out of the chimeras anyways) was all the beard I had in this army.

I had two games with my new force. Both times I set up my army, showed my oponent my army list and they laughed at me (both were MEQ) and said I was going to be bent over the gaming table by the end of the game taking it like a gimmer.

Anyways.... to cut whats becomming a very long story short I won both games. It wasnt a horribly one sided game like it had been with my DE, in fact the second only swung on the last turn.

But more importantly than anything, as much as people mock lasguns, the armoured fist unit did a LOAD of damage, and so did the four flamers.

And, even more important than that, because I found the army challenging to use (and unforgiving at some points) they were the best two games Ive had in AGES!

Anyways..... End of story.

Basically a long way of pointing out you dont need to take loads of plamsa guns, lascannons or whatever in an army. My army had two heavy weapons in all of it and its still viciously effective if you use it right against MEQ. So why do people insist on taking them all the time and thinking that the game can boil down to who has the most in an army? I was against MEQ armies and won both, if they had been something more like orcs or guard I recon alot more damage would have been done, but it still worked fine.....

Now Im on a mission to win a tourney with an army like this. And show you dont have to min/max an army to win with it.

[coredump]

C'mon, you can't tease us that much, and not put down an actual army list.

Grats, I love people winning with unusual armies.

[lowlygaunt]

Great koran! I love the idea of running guard a different way (I like the idea of running any army against its most effecient strategy). I did it with my assault guard army, those same veterans can all have a sword and pistol, thus 4 attacks on the charge! Add hardened fighters and close order drill and its WS4 I 4 guardsmen giving someone the bayonet!!!
thetyranidhive.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=OtherGamesWorkshopstuff&action=display&thread=1184705531
there is the thread where I explained it all.

[koran]

I didnt post it up cos I was expecting a load of "this army list is poo and I could beat it easily" type responces.

I havent got the exact list on me but it was basically:

Senior officer with powerfist
4 flamer guys
Chimera

Sanctioned psyker with honourifca Imperialis and force weapon (this guy is actually my Ordo Xenos inquisitor but I needed rules in the guard codex and this was the closest I could find)

Deathwatch team of 4 and 1 librarian
2 heavy bolters
Rhino


Junior officer with boltgun
four guys with flamers
chimera

2 squads of ten with a missile launcher each

Armoured fist
vet serg with boltgun
flamer
Chimera



Well thats it.... 1k points with very few ap3 weapons and it relies on making the enemy make as many saves as I can, eventually some will get failed.

Its an interesting army to play with actually because you cant be very sure about how much damage anything is goign to do so you have to back it up with other units but then make it so that they can do other things if the first unit does whipe them out. Kinda challenging but fun....

Also its quite rare to see a guard army without either a leman russ (or the army deepstrikes).

[feebianac]

My Imperial Guard army doesn't have a Leman Russ. I don't fine though.

[lowlygaunt]

I like the alternative style of the army Koran. I bet vehicles give you the greatest worry, with only 2 weapons with a strength above 6 (not counting powerfists). I can't wait to hear more about it.

[koran]

Yes and no.

So far the most heavily armoured thing I played against was a defiler... A missile launcher took off its main weapon and the rest of the army ran from it (it evded up being the only thing left in his army). Lol, and S 6 is as good as it gets, its only a guardsman with a powerfist so its still just S6. Poor, poor guardsmen!

But other things are a worry. For some reason Deathwatch come with melta bombs so thats my biggest plan towards anything armour 14.... The only thing I worry about comming up against is tau or eldar skimmers.... They could cause a few problems. But then they are mostly armour 12 so the S6 stands a chance of damaging it. Im thinking of buying one or two of the autocannon chimera turrets from FW. Also theres a chance that the sanctioned psyker will get the machine curse power but relying no that would be VERY risky....

Im looking for suggestions of alterations and getting it up to 1500 and 2kpoints....

So far Im thinking of swapping the command chemeras for the lighter ones from FW (centaur?) so I can have them get out, fire, then assault. But Im not sure how the armour 10 with opened top would hold out. Maybe put one of the units in a vulture... Keeping to the fire theme I was also thinking of some hellhounds, and possibly some roughriders... But I dont know how the roughriders would fit into the army theme.

[cenpjas]

Its been my thoughs that MEQ armys would be a lot scarryer for the rest of us if they were not them selfs configured to kill MEQ armys.

Anyway congrats , I am very impressed. There is in deed skill required to the the most out of that type of army.

I often do the same with armys, my ork army at 2000 points has only 20 orks in it, its all vehicles (spead freak). My Tau army uses kroot and human helpers, vespid and skyrays (which is supprisily unusaul for tau around my neck of the woods.) My nid army is more or less all Ld 10, or synapes, and is a varient on a stealer list I suppose (an evolution of one even). Intrestingly nobody I have met have a similar list, and the number of models is around the same as an 'average' army with out me going 'all the big ones' or all the little ones, I have gone all the middle ones please. Of all my current armys I am most pleased with my tyranids lists.

Looking and finding new and intresting ways to play lists, especialy lists that come with an expectation, like the old chaos codex came with the expectation of a few very points heavy units and somthing to make up the numbers. Where as nids & orks are traditionaly assault and often 'swarm' tactics.

I think I would be rather pleased to give ya a game. Certainly more intresting than playing necrons on an open board (my last game with my nids, I could of put them all away by turn 2's end).

-cen

NB if you can get the theamed thing worked out, hell hounds I have found are a pain in everybodys ass when used Its a shame you can not get transports with better anti-tank, as that would work well I think. I suppose you could go with a demolisher with heavy flamers , works well for my orks.... untill they bring the new dex out mind u.

[koran]

Mmm.... A demolisher would suit the close assault theam... But at the same time it brings my guard into having Heavy Support tanks (just like every other guard army)....

Im annoyed I dont have my IA 4 and 5 with me... Can anyone tell me if for two chimeras (180 total) is the same as a centaur and valkyry or is that not allowed? I know the points cost for a centaur off the top of my head but cant remember the valkyry costs.... I can prove I have IA 4 if thats the problem by aswering any questions (though bare in mind I only read it about a year ago)....

Mmmm.... After seeing one of the FW hellhounds Im even more leaning towards that. Its SO nice (you know the one with the huge tank on the back and the flamer slightly to the side....

Or maybe a flyer as heavy support.... A thunderbolt maybe...

[xenobiohazard]

I tend to base my armies around fluff...but good luck to you!! Im sure having one tank won't matter too much.

[koran]

Its true... But the only tank I was planning on having (other than transports) was going to be a hellhammer (and I wasnt too sure about that either).

I really like the idea of some air support... I guess I could have a few heavy weapons teams to solve my anti tank problems... but then they are pretty pricey... Or maybe more in character, I could give some characters melta bombs.... but that still leaves me screwed against eldar....

[lowlygaunt]

I cannot say enough about the role my hellhound plays. Even if it accomplishes very little, a lot of players are scared of its potential for some reason. Also don't forget the concept of 5 man stormtrooper squads deep striking in with plasma guns as part of your theme.

[koran]

I dont want anything like DSing plasma guns... I just think its wrong and it doesnt fit in with what I want. I resuse to spend much on special weapons and even less so when they will only serve to kill off my own people. Im still thinking about having some melta guns in my army... But Im still unsure about it.

[cenpjas]

trolls said:

I cannot say enough about the role my hellhound plays. Even if it accomplishes very little, a lot of players are scared of its potential for some reason. Also don't forget the concept of 5 man stormtrooper squads deep striking in with plasma guns as part of your theme.

Sorry, let me repeat what you just said "a lot of players are scared of its potential for some reason", yes you said that. Now go put on the pointy hat and sit in the corner if that was not worst use of sarcasm ever.

I can not think why 3 of my army's do not keek there pants when there is a hell hound about. Could it be the 24" range?, or S6 or even god forbit AP4?. I tend to think its the mix, and of course template with no cover save.

Its death to my ork vehicles (template and S6), its death to my FW's (AP4 24" range and ignores cover), and its death to my nids, no I am not going to even bother explaining that one.

Its good to stay with a theme, however your vehicles can have a theme too, if for example you got with 3 demolisher s (lets face it your gona expand your army), then a hellhammer would make a perfect expansion of that.

What this means is you can run the demolisher s as allys of your Iron Fists, or a diffrent formation. Thus keeping both themes alive. Your infantary force is themed and your Vehicles (attack tanks) are themed.

Sounds like a plan to me

-cen

[lowlygaunt]

Wow Cen, no need to be rude. Re-read my sentance please, it started with the phrase "even if it does not accomplish much" which is not the same as saying it does not accomplish much. Most of the armies I face are 3+ saves. I have never seen anyone react to a hellhound like this lol. Your right, against your army it is death on tracks! That is why NO ONE ever lets it shoot twice. It is armor 13 on the front, but if you don't have the firepower to concentrate and at least stun it, you really are hurting for vehicle kill(understandable in an ork army). Against most of the opponents I face it is a one shot wonder; If I hit, Template covers 8 models, wound 7 of 8, opponent makes 2/3's saves, I kill 2-3 guys and then vehicle dies horribly. If I miss its even worse, I then get half,or 4, wound 3.7 or so, even with no save I just killed 4 guys and the vehicle dies! Against armies without saves generaly the troops are so cheap that even killing all 8 does not gain me back the 115 for the Hellhound.
Against orks I can see your issues, as long range vehicle kill certainly isnt an ork army strength (heck, buy a zap gun and its almost auto death, auto hit, average roll on 4d6 is 14, 1-12 it doesnt fire,leaving 1303 possible rolles, of which 909 at least glance), against anyone else, the hellhound should die first chance it gets. In our games that generaly means first time it is exposed it eats 4 or more str 8+ shots and even if it isnt destroyed does nothing for the next turn, which just allows a repeat. heck, against Eldar, DE, Tau, and necrons if i dont get first turn i rarely get to use it, even behind cover their fast attack slots, placed last, can find an angle to vaporise it on turn one (fast skimmers with heavy weapons suck).
I certainly wasn't making a claim that it was useless, just that people over rate its effectivness (as personaly, I think you are doing). Are you really telling me it scares you more than the Leman Russ with the strength 8 ap3 ordnance AND 14 armor?
All this said, do not mistake my comment, my army is BUILT around the hellhound and its lethal potential, I love it.