Beardyness.

[koran]

I was under the impression that you rallied as soon as you were in range.... Might be wrong though as I dont have my codex on me.... And I knew I was missing some movement somewhere....

[coredump]

IB is checked before movement. So if you have to move the HT, it is too late.

And yeah, you rally at the beginning of your turn.

[lowlygaunt]

Hmmm I am waiting for a response on the pile in move after a consolidation. The store I play at hadn't an answer either. They are under the impression you do not get the pile in until after the next round of combat, if you consolidated into CC. Again, I do not have my CRB with me (at work as usual). Anyone got the CRB handy?

[coredump]

I have not reread the section recently, but as I recall, it is a definite.... 'it depends'...

The rules have some issues about when things get resolved, at the end of the individual assault phase, or the entire assault phase, etc. We do not play with a pile in after consolidate, but there is room for that interpretation.

[lowlygaunt]

Ah ok, thanks Coredump, it sounds like what you are saying is what we have also used.

[Devil's Advocate]

Sorry, I've got the flu. it's not fun, and trying to keep up with the Hive while I'm at home is very different from when I'm at work...

on the up side, I DO have my book handy:

Page 44, right under the heading... PILE IN MOVES

At the end of each assault phase, models in units that were locked, but which are not themselves engaged in combat, MUST move up to 6" in an attempt to contact the enemy that were in the same combat. this is done in the same way as moving chargers but is not slowed by difficult terrain and does not trigger Dangerous Terrain tests.

right above it is the consolidation section:

The [consolidation] move may be used to contact enemy units and lock them in combat, but the consolidating unit must maintain unit coherancy and does not count as charging...

Massacre happens under these conditions:
~a successful sweeping advance, where the enemy unit is wiped out (pg 43, left column, final sentence)
~if one side destroys the other entirely in the main assault.
by process of elimination, a massacre does not happen when the enemy unit is defeated and flees successfully.
~~turned a question into a new thread~~

so,
if you assault,
win assault
massacre the unit (or even just get the 3" consolidation)
contact a new unit during consolidation
you STILL must pile in at the END OF THE PHASE.
pile in 6".

[koran]

Thanks alot for that striogi... That could come in VERY handy.

Your a legend.

[lowlygaunt]

Seems pretty clear to me there Striogi, thanks.

[coredump]

Well.... I don't think it is quite that simple.

First issue is the pile-in rule itself. There is some contention as to which models pile-in. The write-up states 'locked, but not engaged'. But the summary, and the picture, have locked and engaged, (but not BtB) get to pile in. Further, either in the 4th Ed 'trial rules' or in 3rd ed (I forget which) the definition of locked and engaged were different. So it appears that the written instruction for who gets to pile in is a cut n paste error.

Second, When are pile in moves take care of? When is the 'end of the phase'? The summary of the assault phase shows that you handle one combat (including consolidate and pile-in) and then move to the next combat. But the rules also say you pile in at the end of the phase. So, is the end of the phase for each combat, or for all of the combats?

Third, the Consolidate rules state that when you consolidate, you are not considered engaged until the next turn. (This brings back the Engaged/Locked issue from item 1). But it goes further,and says they are 'effectively ignored', since all combats are 'simultaneous' (which, of course, is not true due to other rules....)

Fourth, Pile-in rules say that your models that were locked, attempt to contact models that were in the same combat. So, are the HGaunts considered 'were locked' eventhough they just consolidated? And is this new unit considered to have been in the 'same combat'?

Unfortunately, there is no way of resolving all of this, without either breaking a rule, or causing other issues to develop.

Lets use Striogi's example. Your H brood, consolidates into unit M, which is in combat with your brood S.
If H is in combat with M, then if M loses, can H consolidate again? Can it sweeping advance?
If S loses, and breaks, can M sweeping advance?
Does H count towards outnumbering?

As you make decisions, it raises other issues....

[lowlygaunt]

Why do gamers (I include myself into this 100%) often take concrete rules that create situations that are impossible under the laws of physics, and take them as fact "because the rules say so"?

Coredump wrote:
Third, the Consolidate rules state that when you consolidate, you are not considered engaged until the next turn.

I also have issues with the timing, since both consolidation, and "pile in" take place at the end of the assault phase.
This is the portion I remember being discussed on this issue at the GW store. And I believe this is why they stated (they being the manager) you do not get to "pile" into combat until the next round of combat. The Manager at the GW store also explained that the "inference" (his word) is that the idea of simultaneous combats means that pile in and consolidate moves are happening at the same time and therefore a unit cannot do both . His example: Unit A is fighting B and seperately unit C is fighting D. Both combats are taking place at the same exact time. therefore althought they are handled in game rolls in order, the actual swings and deaths were at the same exact time. So if A wipes out B, and C and D draw, A gets to consolidate, while B gets to pile in, move that happen in "real" time sequence simultaneousely, A rushes forward as C "piles in". Now I know the rules do not state this clearly, and that is the issue. The concept of common sense when applied to "real" time of combat makes this a perfect example if all cc combats take place over a set and equal time. Therefore it would be impossible for a unit to both consolidate and pile in, as that unit would theoreticaly be moving twice as far as another unit (an impossibility given time as a set factor versus run speed(as in Striogi's explanation of Gaunt movement)) the manager at GW felt this is a case where concret rule interpretations are not really possible, therefore the common sense idea that a model shouldnot suddenly be able to move multiples of its movement should be used.
Ok that is the view of the GW manager in Northridge.

This situation would not exist if GW had clearly explained that a unit gets to either consolidate, or pile in at the end of a CC combat. Which makes more "scientific" sense, given that in either case they have the option and 2 seconds say, to "run" a certain distance. In the sense that an armored man at the end of combat has the option to a: run 10 yards to contact another enemy or B: run up to 10 yards to help his comrade who is fighting nearby. Not run 10 yards soa guy 10 yards ahead of him contacts an enemy, and THEN run another 10 yards to help. If he could run the twenty yards in the first place, why doesn't he always run 20 yards if that option helps him? (and therefore if a guant can consolidate 6" and pile in 6" why can't he always consolidate 12" irregardless of contact or not?)

the store has chosen to interpret it as a unit can only use one of these two "movement" options at the end of a CC, but not both in the same turn.
Now I find this ruling very easy, solves a lot of issues, and not really compromising the "concrete" rules. It also fits my own "common" sense, so of course I like it, and understand others do not have the same common sense, or even apply common sense into these rulings but go by the exact wording only. (of course its obvious from this and other postings I am the type of player who does not like rules that do not make much sense, and seem to suddenly double the capabilities of units that are supposed to represent real life equivalents, and yes I know a unit represents a superhuman space marine, but often these rulings allow the same unit different maximums at diferent points in one game, and that is silly. If a gaunt could consolidate, and then move another 6" to "pile" in, why cant they do this every time, instead of only occasionaly? (sarcastic voice) Oh, thats right, when I played College hockey, sometimes I could skate the length of the rink in 3.4 seconds, and others I could skate twice that distance. . because I ran a defenseman over. . SILLY|!!!!!!)
OOOps off my soap box. I know the game is not supposed to be exactly realistic, but it is still supposed to be somewhat realistic. . and the above explanation/interpretation is not in any way (accurate as the rules may be written I know, not arguing that). The argument on Tau weapons and recoil comes to mind for me here.
May be one of those instances where too many rules contadict each other and any interpretation leads to more problems as Coredump said.

Not aiming this at anyone or anything, just continuing an interesting discussion. I wish GW would do a better job of fixing rules rather than bending physics.

[thepuritan]

trolls said:

sometimes I could skate the length of the rink in 3.4 seconds, and others I could skate twice that distance. . because I ran a defenseman over.

i know that normal movement doesn't represent a full-out run for any model.... they're supposed to be moving cautiously and keeping their eyes about them.

as far as the pile-in or consolidation move goes, since it too is 6" (or less), it stands to reason that that is also not a full-out run for the model... since they're engauged in HtH combat, the models probably have to negotiate a melee and get waylayed a bit on their 6" travel.

in your example, i'd probably say:
"when i'm being mindful of all the people looking to run me down on the ice, i can get to the other end of the rink in 7 seconds... but after i check a guy to steal the puck, i can breakaway to the net in 3.4 seconds."

[cykosis]

I don't know which way to look at it, to pile in or not to pile in after consolidation? Maybe someone should poll it?

I played a game on Tuesday and we decided not to pile in after consolidation because of the wording in the rule book refers to models that were involved in combat and after consolidating into a new unit, they had not been in combat for that turn.

This meant as only one model could connect, that during the opponent's turn the rest of both units wait around patiently for the few engaged models to fight before piling in afterwords. Which I found a bit odd.

Perhaps there should be a further pile in move at the start of the movement phase to resolve this?

[lowlygaunt]

Good point Puritan. But it just begs the argument why can't I always choose to run my guys an extra 12" in open terrain away from the enemy, if they CAN run up to an extra 12"right after and while running into a CC combat? Again logic says a person would enter those situations with more caution then when far from them. So again, when on the ice, I would travel more slowly when moving into a scrum, then with open ice in front of me on the rink, yet in 40k the opposite is tru, models move slower with nothing around them, then with many enemies directly in front and around them. Most historical assaults in the modern era are decided on the speed at which assault troops can cross the ground between them and their objective, so you bet your "bleep" they should be moving at full speed when going forward.
Using your concept of breaking thru a defender, in 40k ice hockey my guy breaks thru a defender (wins CC) and gets an extra 1d6" movement, that makes perfect sense in the breakaway theory, but then in the rules I stop. However, according to 40k rules, if I see another defender ahead of me I get to speed up again? that makes no sense on the idea that normal movement is wary movement to me.
It is the extra movement engendered by both being able to consolidate AND pile in that just goes the little bit too far for my logic circuits! That extra 7-12" is more than most models can move under their movement, and it comes possible after they have moved double movement in the same round.
(In reality my hockey analagy is poor, because you are right, on a battle field troops are not moving forward at full speed at all times, on a hockey rink (being one of the "little" guys at 5' 10" and 190,) I WAS moving as fast as I could to survive)
Ooops lol sorry, ranting on something that is in truth completely irrelevant! It just amazes me how the same people (and i am ABSILUTELY one to do it) who will argue real world physics and apply it to alien technology etc, will then support the "concrete" rule systemt that so obviousely creates an outrageous situation when compared to "real" life, for an advantage, or because "the rules say so".
Heck, under these rules the tactics used by WWI generals would have worked perfectly. Apparently the British at the Somme weren't using these rules.
And yes I know it really is simply a result of simplified rules to simulate reality, but its a good discussion.

[arcticsnake]

Engaged models are those in BtB contact and 2" away from the model in BtB. The whole unit is then considered Locked.

Pile in happens to models in the unit that is Locked but not Engaged. Consolidation states that it may be used to lock enemy units in combat. So after Consolidation you have Locked your unit in combat, and if you have any models still not Engaged after Consolidation, those models would have to Pile in.

If you consolidate into an existing close combat, you are not considered Engaged until the next assault phase but you are still considered Locked.

But the BGB also states (RAW interpretation):
1. Outnumbering counts all Locked models (count all models not just Engaged ones)
2. You can do a second Sweeping Advance after Consolidation(the only requirements that would prevent a Sweeping Advance are no BTB models and being Engaged with other units not falling back - you consolidate into BTB contact, you are counted during outnumbering, and you are definitely not Engaged even if you Consolidate into two or more enemy units)
3. Enemy units can do a Sweeping Advance if they win. (your units are not Engaged, remember?) BUT since your Consolidating unit is already Locked in combat with them, you would still get to move models up to 6" for Pile In.

Which makes the phrase "effectively ignored" pretty much useless. Maybe they should have changed the wording of the other rules to fit in better instead..

And that assumes that all Pile In moves happen at the end of the Assault Phase and not just at the End of each Combat.

I'm confused. Which side of the argument was I on? Oh, right, I still think that you should be able to Pile In after Consolidation, but only after all Combats have been resolved.

[coredump]

Engaged models are those in BtB contact and 2" away from the model in BtB. The whole unit is then considered Locked.

Pile in happens to models in the unit that is Locked but not Engaged.

Yep. Now read the summary at the beginning of the chapter.
Now check out the picture that illustrates the pile-in manuever.
Neither match the rule you quoted.

So after Consolidation you have Locked your unit in combat, and if you have any models still not Engaged after Consolidation, those models would have to Pile in.

But you only pile in with models that were in the same combat...

Basically, an area best discussed before the game....