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Post by Nightstalker on Aug 24, 2010 15:13:28 GMT
You mean we might soon stop wasting money and lives in this war on terror and instead focus more on defense, security, and our failing economy?
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Post by Hellbreaker on Aug 24, 2010 15:20:04 GMT
They built a mosque over the wreckage of the Temple of Jesus. This is what the middle east has been fighting over for the last 2000 years! But Jesus was no particular guy for either Jews or Muslims. He was a prophet (who failed) to Muslims, and just an average everyday normal guy to Jews. That is as far as I know at least. Tell me if I'm wrong. Cheers! |
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Post by Fiddlersworth on Aug 24, 2010 15:41:40 GMT
I agree that just because something's legal doesn't make it right, but I think in this case that a lot of people's emotions are getting the better of them and are blinding them to what is right. In 1950 we could have built a large museum in Hiroshima talking about how wonderful the USA scientific discoveries are... and how much nuclear science will eventually help the world. It would be legal, but a douchebag move. ........ How about in Port Arthur we erect a large shooting range, with displays on how to use and properly aim a gun. Or better yet, maybe a display showing the various uses and benefits of pesticides.... we can put it in Bhopal India. The three examples above are of venerating things that killed people, but they doesn't fit what's happening in New York. Islam didn't fly those planes into those towers. Fanatical terrorists did. From your argument I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel that a cultural centre is akin to a monument to the terrorists? But they're not putting up statues of the terrorists or a museum on suicide bombers. The building won't even be at ground zero. It's a few blocks away. And I don't think they're building it there as a taunt. They're not even "building it". They bought an old Burlington Coat Factory to refurbish... 10 years later. Does this mean that no mosques can ever be built near ground zero again? Is Manhattan now to be a muslim-free zone because of what happened? The people who use the culture centre aren't going to be terrorists; they're going to be kids using the gym for basketball practice. Why are we painting all muslims with the same brush? I only know a few but they don't seem that different from anyone else. Take another example. Over 6 million people died horribly in German concentration camps during WW2. Yet do we blame all Germans for this? No, we blame the ones who ran the camps. Islam isn't the problem. Fanatics are and they are in every religion. Personally I think organized religions are a bad idea (all of them), but I respect the rights of others to believe what they wish and don't want to get too far off topic. As for some feeling like they got "a victory over the U.S." I'm sure some may, just like I'm sure some did when a man named Barrack Hussein Obama was elected president. But no one overturned the election results for fear that "the enemy" would see it as a victory, because it was fair, legal, and (I think) for the best. In other words, you don't cut your nose off to spite your face. Regardless, at this point I doubt it will get built anyways with so much opposition. |
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Post by Psychichobo on Aug 24, 2010 22:11:09 GMT
I'm with Fiddlerworth here. By not building a place of worship there (or whatever it actually is - if it's just a community centre boy did things get blown out of proportion) it's effectively insulting Muslims the world over by saying 'America thinks you're all in this together, so screw you Islam'.
The reason isn't legality, it's the fact that people are being offended that something vaguely related to a terrorist attack.
Such a community centre is in no way celebrating the attack. That is the important factor. Building one effectively says that America's still the land of the free and not the merciless western oppressors that everyone makes them out to be.
I can see Coredump's perspective. In the UK there's a general feeling that the Blair government bent over backwards for migrant communities at the expense of the native population, and this perceived favouritism led to a sense of cultural division. The race card's pretty strong in the UK, and things aren't right because of it. If a similar thing were to happen here, the feeling would be that it would be being done to try and pamper the Islamic community - which is wrong. As one of my friends said, there isn't a Christian Community or an Islamic Community - there is merely The Community.
I will admit that I'm not up to date on America's current situation regarding how other cultures are perceived. However, I do feel that it's in a position currently to be able to see construction of such a building being a beneficial thing.
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Post by mina on Aug 25, 2010 1:54:36 GMT
Actually Helly, Jesus = God, (assuming you believe.) and the Jew are his chosen people, it's just that in the new testament, gentiles were allowed to be saved.
THe conflict between Islam and Jews began back in the old testament, and it is essentially the conflict between Judah and Israel.
I understand, that it isn't at ground zero, and that America is all about freedom of religion, but I don't think it will heal those wounds. I do think it will put more poison in them. I don't know if there is a right answer, but I do think if I had a loved one who died, however illogical, I wouldn't want a mosque anywhere near there.
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Post by brovius on Aug 25, 2010 2:34:08 GMT
I believe that religion does more harm than good. Almost all wars are caused over someone's "God-given right" or difference in beliefs.
I am a proud Agnostic, but i lean towards Atheism. Here's one of my favourite quotes:
"I contend that we are both Astheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all other gods except your own, you will know why i dismiss yours" ~S.F. Roberts
The kind of people who say that "Atheists are dangerous people because they grow up without morals" are *please don't swear* idiots. Thy make me so angry.
"There's nothing stopping them from killing someone, because they have no beliefs that doing bad things will send them to hell"
Atheists are nice because they don't want to be *please don't swear*. Religious people are only nice because they will go to hell, or their equivalent, if they don't be nice. AKA religious people are selfish, they are kind because they want something out of it (going to heaven, 72 virgins and whatnot).
Every side has their religious fanatics, some sides more than others (like the Christians who think the Harry Potter movies have subliminal messages promoting sex). It's a dangerous thing, and mixing these fanatics leads to conflict.
Mod Note: Please don't try to bypass the swear filter
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Post by salamut2202 on Aug 25, 2010 6:14:02 GMT
^but that has little to do with it. the idea that it's some symbolic conquering, command centre you're enemies general's grave & homage to the 9/11 tragedy is rather sick fabricated imagery. hey america, i have some imagery for you- looking like an intolerant group of bigots who hate all muslims. if anything that just enforces what the extremists are preaching. i thought we're using the 'win hearts and minds' method in the fail afghanistan war.
it's not:
- a trophy of a victory
- a comand centre within borders
- pissing on a mother's grave
- an entire religion & tradition's midle finger
it's more of:
- getting understanding that not all muslims are terrorists
- mending ties with the american islamic community
- showing what islam is really about
- a way to show america's tolerant & multicultural existence
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Post by Hellbreaker on Aug 25, 2010 7:21:42 GMT
Actually Helly, Jesus = God, (assuming you believe.) and the Jew are his chosen people, it's just that in the new testament, gentiles were allowed to be saved. Jesus was the son of god, according to Christians. (new testament) Christianity is an off-branch of Judaism, but that's beside the point. Point is, he wasn't god as such, rather the son of god. Assuming you're a believer that is. Cheers! |
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Post by salamut2202 on Aug 25, 2010 7:54:41 GMT
*sigh* ok for all not christians who're now confused let me expain. god is made of 3 parts according to christians. the farther - the feared ruler of the universe, the son - messenger and massiah and holy spirit born from the love of god. this must have been the reason why the closest school is a catholic school.
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Post by Jason on Aug 25, 2010 9:18:52 GMT
I think they should probably not do it, yet. Wait another 10 years or so. They are building a place of prayer, near a place of tragedy, that has some connection to Islam, and it is in New York. I think the last reason is the biggest one. They are just putting themselves in serious danger if they go through with it.
Otherwise, I say go for it. The right answer comes if you apply the Golden Rule to your thinking. If the same thing happened over there by fanatical Americans, and you were trying to build a Church, not even, a prayer area, over there, how would you feel if they didn't allow that or offered this much resistance?
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Post by salamut2202 on Aug 25, 2010 9:52:05 GMT
Wait another 10 years or so. did you also know that construction was[\i] going to start in 10 (please do not swear) years! |
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Post by Fiddlersworth on Aug 25, 2010 13:16:50 GMT
"I contend that we are both Astheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you. When you understand why you dismiss all other gods except your own, you will know why i dismiss yours" ~S.F. Roberts Love the quote, I've heard Dawkins say the same thing numerous times on Youtube but I assume he got it from Roberts. I understand your frustration with religious folk who view non-believers as immoral. "What do you base your morals and values on then?" Someone actually asked me that once. I said, "I got them from the same place as you did, my parents." After she said she got hers from the bible and because I didn't believe in hell I was immoral I responded with "So the only reason your doing good things is out of fear of punishment? I'm doing them for the sake of being a good person. Which do you think is better?" She was quiet after that. There's actually a really good example of atheist intolerance on Youtube. Search for CNN atheist Paula Zahn. She was let go from CNN a few months after the broadcast and CNN had to do a follow up (less biased) story as damage control. Most people just accept that people believe whatever they wish to and live and let live. Problems are caused by those who try to force conversion on others. Particularly when those in power use religious views as an excuse to attack others. *sigh* ok for all not christians who're now confused let me expain. god is made of 3 parts according to christians. the farther - the feared ruler of the universe, the son - messenger and massiah and holy spirit born from the love of god. this must have been the reason why the closest school is a catholic school. This is what Catholics believe. Having gone to Protestant Sunday school as a child I can tell you that Jesus was not God, he was his son nothing more. |
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Post by Nightstalker on Aug 25, 2010 15:17:33 GMT
I have always been told the same as salamut was (I'm a recovering Roman Catholic) That God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are separate yet interchangeable beings. In other words Jesus is God yet is also the son of God. Honestly unless you want to involve cloning its a little far-fetched.
But more back on topic. The reason why the cultural center is going to have prayer rugs is because devout Muslims have to pray to Mecca at least 5 specific times a day no matter where they are. So since this is going to be an Islamic cultural center (as with the vast majority of Muslim owned buildings around the world) it is a matter of convenience to have prayer rugs where you work that are already set up in a specific room (so it can stay clean and quiet) facing towards Mecca.
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Post by coredump on Aug 25, 2010 18:48:01 GMT
Okay folks, we really need to avoid the 'sliding slope' hyperbole, and double check some of these facts. It is a logical fallacy that stopping this Mosque will lead to a "Mohammad free zone", or "move [muslims] into specially designated areas". No one is proposing anything even close to that. To ask "Is Manhattan now to be a muslim-free zone...?" is beyond preposturous. There are *over 100* mosques in NYC already. And no one is saying there is anything wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with building another mosque, or community center, or whatever.... Just that there is a tremendous amount of insensitivity to *purposely* building it "at" Ground Zero. Salamut: Either your words have merit, or they do not. Using 72pt font doesn't make them more true, it just makes it look like you are having a tantrum. It is a mosque. In fact, it is a mosque plus more. You could easily think of it as a MegaMosque. It will have a large mosque, plus meeting rooms, auditorium, etc. Aimed at the Muslim communities. Under most definitions, it is not literally on Ground Zero. It is a whopping 300+ feet from WTC Building 7, and about 600' from WTC Building 6. But it could also be considered to be part of Ground zero, since it was directly damaged by the attack. Part of the plane landed on the building. A quote I came across: “It is not directly on ground zero, but it is a part of ground zero,” In fact, the Imam leading the project, (Yes the same 'moderate' Imam that is on record as wanting to help bring Sharia law to the US, and has refused to address whether Hamas is a terrorist organization.) He stated that he picked that building specifically *because* it was damaged in the attack. And he is the one that first addressed the project as the Ground Zero Mosque. you know, to emphasis this did you know that a church was badly damaged in the attacks and was rebuilt in the same place? I only know of one church damaged, and it has *not* been rebuilt. In fact, it keeps being stalled by bureaucratic red tape. did you also know that construction was[\i] going to start in 10 (please do not swear) years!Not quite, their plan was to start building by the 10 year anniversay. (2011, next year) I doubt it will take 10 years to build it. (Some reports say the intent was to finish it by next year, but I think those were mistaken.) it's a cultural community centre. with like a prayer room. No. It is a mosque, a full fledged mosque, *plus* more things in addition. in fact 1,200 muslims dies that day. That is not a fact, that is ridiculous. It was first put forth by the leader of the "Flying Imams" about 2 weeks after the attacks. (How he could possibly know so fast... no one knows). The real number is closer to 30. (Plus the 19 hijackers...) A bit OT: Really? WW2? Vietnam? Somalia? Darfur? WW1? Korea? American civil war? French civil war? French and Indian war? Boer war? War of 1812? War of the Roses? Conquests of Gengis Khan? Conquests of Alexander the Great? Bosnia? An Shi Rebellion? Taiping Rebellion? Russian Civil war? Congo wars (1 &2)? Napoleonic wars? Thirty Year war? I can go on.... Which of these were caused by Religion? |
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Post by Fiddlersworth on Aug 25, 2010 20:38:34 GMT
It is a logical fallacy that stopping this Mosque will lead to a "Mohammad free zone", or "move [muslims] into specially designated areas". How? How is it a logical fallacy? We're talking about denying a group of people their inalienable religious freedoms upon which your country was founded. Is it that much of a stretch to go from barring them this one site to barring them from building any mosque within 300 ft or 600 ft of Ground Zero? Is it really okay if it only happens this once? Just that there is a tremendous amount of insensitivity to *purposely* building it "at" Ground Zero. Speaking of sensitivities, how comfortable and secure are American muslims of New York and around the country feeling right now? it is a mosque plus more. You could easily think of it as a MegaMosque. It will have a large mosque, plus meeting rooms, auditorium, etc. Aimed at the Muslim communities. ...... No. It is a mosque, a full fledged mosque, *plus* more things in addition. Honestly, barring what it says in the New York City building code, I wouldn't care if it had a 50 foot minaret on top of it with blinking lights. I mean it may look a tad tacky with the lights... but... They are not building this community centre + mosque + board rooms + wave pool there as a taunt or insult or victory over the U.S. They are building it because there are, as mentioned previously, over 100 muslims living in downtown New York who could use it. What happened on 9/11 was tragic. A lot of people died from alot of different religions and countries. But to take it out on a group of people who had nothing to do with it is wrong. Even the mayor of the city knows that. "If we say that a mosque and community centre should not be built near the perimeter of the World Trade Center site, we would compromise our commitment to fighting terror with freedom..... The question will then become, how big should the 'no-mosque zone' around the World Trade Center be? There is already a mosque four blocks away. Should it, too, be moved?" -Mayor Michael Bloomberg |
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