Tough topics

[salamut2202]

Aug 15, 2010 10:40:13 GMT Enigma said:

And apparently Canadians are really polite compared to Americans, and I have no idea why.

oh i've met several canadians. when an aussie knocks someone they apolagize, when a canadian knocks someone the person who got knocked apologizes. wot?

[Enigma]

Yeah I remember we had a member of parliament who Rick Mercer (kinda like the Daily show but Canadian and more generally political) interviewed, and this guy was a paraplegic. He mentioned that when he accidentally hits people, they automatically apologize because he's the one in the wheel chair. It's kind of funny when you think about it...

[Jason]

I like the acronym for The war on terror, describes it so accurately. T.W.A.T. lol.

Hmmm. For a large country to be communist... Well, we are just going to have to find someone who isn't corrupt prone aren't we? I think we can start with kindergartners lol. Actually, I think they'd help with any government right now.

[canadianone]

hmmmmm, a nigh all powerful ruler of a powerful country who isnt corrupt.

tell me how that works out for you =).

[wormwood]

Now what I don't understand is why everyone here hates Obama so much... he's beginning to close up Guantanamo, which has been breaking human rights for years under the excuse that it "isn't part of America technically", he created free health care which I'm sure nobody minds, aside from the doctors, and they should really stop whinging about it because it's been like that for a while in Canada and doctors are still damn well paid, and he's beginning to pull out of Iraq.

Excuse me, but how is making the purchase of private health care insurance compulsory for everyone on an individual basis, in any way providing free healthcare? It seems the foreign press really didn't follow the development of the health care reform act too closely.
This was a behind the scenes Wall Street bailout disguised as healthcare reform. When everyone got burned in the stock market correction a couple of years ago, it got really hard to find people willing to gamble on it again, so there was no new capital coming in. Private health insurers make all their money by investing their customers monthly premiums in the stock market. So, by forcing everyone to pay private insurers for health insurance, the government forced us all to recapitalize the stock market.

Starting the Iraq war and deposing Saddam was sheer lunacy, but now it's a house of cards. As soon as we have pulled out that house of cards is coming down, and when the locals are free to choose their own government it'll be something more like the Iranian theocratic government next door. Saddam was bad, but he was certainly a lesser evil than some of the alternatives. Presently Iraq and Afghanistan serve as lightning rods to draw Islamic radicals bent on killing Americans to a battleground far removed from our own soil. When the Americans are gone, where do you think these highly motivated individuals will go? We have a tiger by the tail, and Obama is letting go.

As for closing the detention facility in Cuba, the President's spokesman has clearly stated that some of the detainees will not get their day in court for reasons of national security. Apparently to reveal the evidence against them, would compromise the surveillance tools used to acquire that evidence and undermine the apprehension of other terror suspects. So, while the facility is being closed, the policy of holding prisoners indefinitely without due process is not being ended.

[sarcasm]Hooray for our new president bringing us free healthcare, ending the war, and bringing justice to the political prisoners![/sarcasm]

[Jason]

Aug 16, 2010 10:26:04 GMT canadianone said:

hmmmmm, a nigh all powerful ruler of a powerful country who isnt corrupt.

tell me how that works out for you =).

Well, I look at it this way. The leaders of today need an indefinite leave and should be replaced by a new leader. A leader that can unite the world into an Empire of Man. And I pick... ME! Muwhahaha!

[CephaSquiddy]

Before we know it he'll star building genetic-super soldiers

[mina]

This has degraded in the last few posts.

If you wish to have a good time making (please do not swear) jokes and being off topic and not contributing, then kindly take it to the part of the forum that doesn't want ideas and debate.

I created this thread for talking about real events and real problems. I WANT IDEAS AND ARGUMENTS!

(you have every other thread to behave like teenagers in please don't do so here.)

As for the whole communism debate (how did we get here lmao)

I think on paper and in small communities it functions very well. I just think that at a larger scale humans ruin the whole thing.

I remember reading in Time magazine about small eco communities that had popped up where all the adults worked together, watched their children together, and ate together. I guess researchers found that there was like no crime and no suffering.

[canadianone]

i apologize for veering off topic, (sorry but i am a teenager)


on the subject fo communism, i love it, i think that communism is the ideal Utopian type of government, however, as with most Utopian ideas, this is sadly unattainable, you see for every good honest person out there who wants to build a better society, their is someone who wants to work towards more selfish goals. these people are the Vanderbilt's of the world, the industrial giants, the warlords. they believe that because they are "clever" enough to not pay there worker decent wages, and manipulate them and terrorize them, that they should be in charge and at teh top, they will undoubtedly point to "natural selection" and survival of the fittest, and while i am a firm believer in darwinism, i do believe that the same parallels are true in society. we as a species have taken great measures to fight natural selection, through our medical advances and more understanding societies we have changed the rules. for instance let me bring up the subject of autism and other special needs individuals, and let me preclude everythign i am about to say with that i have a member of my family with autism, and i think this kid is a genious, i have complete respect for these individuals and i do not want to be called out on this, i work with my mom on special needs advocacy in the state of Mass.. back to my point, in the wild, if a wolf could not properly interact with other wolves, that wolf would die out, it would not be able to function in the pack and its genes would not be passed on. but now, in our society we make exceptions for these individuals (yes this is a good thing), by taking extra measures we include these people in our society, and im not saying that autism is genetic and can be passed on, but the point remains, in the wild, a wolf with the equivalent of autism would die,. in our society a person wont.

back to my starting point now, because people who believe that because they can take advantage of others they should, we will never be able to reach a society in which communism works because we will constantly be reduced to something closer to stalinism when some "clever" (greedy/selfish) sees an easy way to get more at the expense of others and takes that oppertunity.

until this changes, communism will only ever work with robots and ants


(sorry for the gross spelling and grammar errors)

[Jason]

I apologize for my silliness as well. However, underneath that lump of playful talk, I tried to make a point. That there come times when a dictatorship comes in handy. If, and I really mean IF, we have some sort of living saint in our midst that had a vision and the ambition to go for it AND managed to get Communism into power. Then, a utopia could possibly be achieved. You can probably tell I'm talking in reference to the Emperor lol.

I'm probably putting too much faith on humanity, but that's really all we have. You guys say that Communism works in smaller communities. I believe that it can also work on a far larger scale. We just need someone or something to put us in the right place. I know there are people who think exactly like I am. Take Star Trek for example. Within 50 years of making first contact with the Vulkans, wars stopped, people started to come together, money was disbanded, it was pure utopian Communism, and all it took was the realization that we are not alone.

[salamut2202]

we've achieved so much in our nature already, look how much we're NOT going to war now. i think it will happen. i just want it to be sooner then later.

[Enigma]

People are corrupt lil bastards though, and power corrupts further. I don't think that unlimited power for good stays "for good" for long. The people who decided to make their countries communist typically had utopian plans in mind (I know at least Mao did), but in the end these countries ended up in a terrible state, partially from corruption and partially from the fact that it just won't work. People don't have a justification to work harder if they don't get paid all that much more and can never get power of their own. In a capitalist society (which is what China is now pretty much, officially still communist though), people have reason to work hard, and that's because there are greater returns on the time they put in. They can rise up through the ranks of the business ladder, and gain power in the company, something which almost everyone strives for. Sure, the unfortunate ones are cast down to the bottom of the ladder, not everyone can be an executive after all, but that's just a sad fact of life anywhere.

Humanity is not built for equality. That's one of the reasons the fisher's paradox exists, if I remember right. Not only do I want to get more fish in my basket, I want to screw over the other guy and take his fish while I'm at it, crush him into a mushy pulp, absorb his fishing company and then, when I'm finished doing this to everyone, I'll have a fleet of fishing boats and I'll be swimming in money. That's human mentality.

Communism assumes a perfect leader (might be possible, but highly unlikely) and that everyone else is either a nice enough person to not want more money, or not willing to speak up and say that they want companies. The thing is, people want equality, so communism figures that we should give it to them. Then we find out how wrong we are to want complete equality.

[canadianone]

enigma,as to communism not working becasue of human greed/nature, i think that is a flaw of humanity not the system of communism and as sally said, sooner or later we will transcend our selfish nature as humans.

and as to jason saying that dictators can come in useful, yes they can, look at the Roman empire, during the more democratic part of the empire, when in times of great danger (war) a dictator or "tyrant" would be put in power for as long as the conflict lasted, he would more or less have complete power, but as you can see by reading roman history, they rarely if ever tried to keep control or abuse their powers. even the word tyrant, which today has a strong negative connotation is misused, as back then, tyrant just meant one in charge, they were for the vast majority of the time, benevolent

[Enigma]

But the fact that Communism doesn't take human nature into account is a huge flaw in itself. If I were to build an army list with no anti tank that could shred infantry, and then my opponent rolls along and has but a single heavy tank, the flawed part of the equation is not my opponent's tank or the fact that most armies have tanks, but rather that my list didn't take into account the fact that most armies have tanks.

[canadianone]

youre point is very valid, but i prefer to think of it like this, communism was created to be the perfect society, but we are not perfect, but we can use this idea to work towards bettering ourselves, and caring about the welfare of others.