Welcome to tactics 5.1

[Space is pretty big]

May 27, 2010 10:30:18 GMT daveshed said:

A question: how do we teach a new player to play the army?

I submit that we do so by helping them to identify which units and strategies are the most powerful and effective, then instructing them on their use; and that we do so by helping them to identify the weaknesses of units and strategies, then instructing them on how to minimise those weaknesses.

On that basis, a vs Nids thread is simply that same guidance flipped on its' head. The first part becomes 'Beware these units' and the second becomes 'Exploit these weaknesses'.

I don't really see what's harmful about such a thread. Perhaps a suitable halfway house would be to include explicit 'Weakness' coaching in tactica entries about our units... but that just feels like we are fitting a whole process of coaching around one individual's personal disdain of a Vs Nids thread.

But, by your own description it would be just plain redundant, even if in a backwards sorta way...

Plus, were not really here to hand hold every newb that comes along. As long as we don't assault them, then no amount of simplification is going to cause some one to stick around who would otherwise leave due to laziness.

And, yeah, it is kind of a matter of pride after all. I mean, a Vs. nid thread would be sorta like a thread saying "How to hit your self on the head, really really effectively."

[daveshed]

I don't think it would be redundant - just a single collected resource of information in a place easy for others to find.

There are other benefits to a Vs Nids thread - it can begin to tackle metagame issues, if popular strategies emerge, a much more specific type of theory than a general understanding of what is bad and good for Nids.

I disagree with your assertion that we aren't here to "...hand hold every newb that comes along." I was a Newb to this game a year ago - and amongst the things that encouraged me were the resources on this board that were clearly written and accessible to beginners.

I think we should actively be trying to help new players as much as possible. If we do it well, we all end up with a bigger, stronger hobby community. In my opinion, that's something worth having.

[yoritomo]

Let me ask you something. You know how play. You also learned a lot from this forum. If you were to play a game against tyranids, do you think you could beat them?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that you do believe you could beat another tyranid army.

So why is that? It certainly isn't because of this forum's Vs. Nids thread. No, it is because you've learned how to spot the weaknesses of a tyranid army.


There are two ways to win a battle. The first is to memorize tactics, tips, and trick then apply them as you see fit; and the other way is to analyze the battle and create your own solutions. Our Vs. threads are the former. The are tips and pointers that you can use to win a game. However, you can't win every game by doing what is in the Vs. threads. In order to do that you must learn to analyze the situation and come up with an effective strategy.

So how do you get to the point where you can effectively analyze the game and come up with your own ideas? Well, the first step is to apply what you read here in your games. When you see thing like harlequins and remember that over on The Tyranid Hive they said to shoot them instead of assaulting them. Those little recognitions help build up your situational awareness.

Once you are aware of the situation you can begin to see the strenghts and weaknesses of units. This is where you start to analyze the battle. This is where you start to compare units and can judge how effective they will be.

After you've analyzed the situation then you learn how do deal with problems without resorting to what we say here at The Tyranid Hive. This is the goal that all players should strive to achieve.

All this sounds easy when I explain it here, but it's not. When you have a dozen things going on and you have to decide when to shoot and when to assault and you have three units opposing you things get difficult. And that's why we are here.

The problem with the Vs. Nids thread is that it robs new players of the easiest lesson. The first army you are going to analyze completely is the army you play. Which in this case it is tyranids. By giving a new player the answer right off the bat he will not learn this easy lesson. There is no reason for him to learn why his army works, all he has to do is read a thread for the answers. We're looking to make competent players here, not ones who can win by reading a book.

[eurynomos]

I understand your reasonings, and realize that as a not-mod, I'm likely not going to change your mind nor be able to do anything about it, but that's ok. still, for the the sake of argument, let me put it another way

the other game I follow and play a lot is Starcraft (soon to be SC2), and in SC there are the three races. in tourney level pro-gaming play, for a player who uses one race exclusively, there are really only 3 matchups then: against one of the other two races, or against your own. now, the very nature of each race dictates that you play with a different strategy against each of them, including your own race. now, does playing your own race necessarily mean that you will be at your best playing against your own race? actually, no, and frequently such mirror-matches are the most difficult for players

that's the thing. now, I'm going on the assumption that this is a probably going to be a game with slight list tailoring due to the fact that you know who you'll be playing. that's because in our vs. thread we don't have a "vs Everybody" thread. so with list tailoring in mind, playing against nids will necessitate a certain amount of list tailoring that is unique to playing against nids

what you have to keep in mind is that not all the people on here are dedicated nid players. for some, this may be a second, third, fourth, etc. army that's just for fun. as such, this whole "analyzing nids completely concept" is probably never going to happen with these people. a vs nids thread would, therefore, help them out immensely, as it will get them off the beaten path of "fight like a SM" or "fight like an eldar" that they're used to. naturally, a side effect might be that they would learn new ways to beat nids in the future with their main armies, but that's up to you mod guys to decide if you want to reach out to other army players in such a manner

[daveshed]

I don't 100% agree with your position that a player won't learn if presented with a particular type of advice, Yoritomo - but that said, I think you've argued the position very clearly and I now understand your motivation for resisting a Vs Nids thread somewhat better.

You're absolutely right about the importance of players learning to make value judgements for themselves; it's a critical step in the journey from novice to competent player to good player. If we agree on that, I suppose I should just accept that you have different ideas on how to bring players to that point.

[Space is pretty big]

amongst the things that encouraged me were the resources on this board that were clearly written and accessible to beginners

But that isn't hand-holding, it's the absents of cruelty, and the presents of common sense and patience. What I'm more worried about with a Vs. thread is turning Nids into paint by numbers.

just a single collected resource of information in a place easy for others to find.

The thing is that I think most of what you're saying is pretty smart, I just can't see what it would have to do with a Vs. nids thread. It seems to me your talking about a Tyranid for beginners thread, which I actually would support in some manner. That being said I happen to lean more towards the find-your-own-path method that Yori mentioned.

what you have to keep in mind is that not all the people on here are dedicated nid players

Silly food, you're suppose to be eaten! Would you teach a tasty crab how to fight with a fork?

[daveshed]

Haha, brilliant! I'm going to use that Crab analogy the first chance I get

Space, I think you might be onto something with Tyranids for beginners. I'm not 100% clear how much it would deviate from the likes of Loate's unit tactica. What would you see forming the bulk of a beginners thread?

[Ripper01]

I don't think there should be a vs tyranids tactic because why would the hive mind be killing it's own minions with other minions. It's like punching your self for no reason, because tyranids are supposed to act like a single organism as stated in the codex and DOW2 campaign.

[hivefleetingensus]

Umm, nids fight each other all the time in the fluff. The winner takes in the good qualities of the defeated fleet, and becomes even stronger.

[code11]

^ is this true? To be honest I haven't read fluff since 4th edition, but if this is true than my fluff-boycott was well warranted.

[WestRider]

That's been in the fluff since at least 3rd Ed. Nonsensical concepts in fluff are nothing new for GW.

[voraciousapathy]

Somewhere along the line, we allowed the moderators to think that their opinions mattered. Now, we are reaping the fruits of that terrible seed. Two players playing the same army will play those armies differently, and while we cannot really devote a thread to "playing against people you don't know", it's perfectly reasonable to assume that you'll run across a 'Nid player who pulls something you THINK is weak, only to find out it was surprisingly effective when used in 'X' way. To simply make a blanket statement that it's a bad idea, no matter what, to create a thread for people to run their own experiences of mirror matches, is pretty short-sighted. Like, almost brainless. If the community makes a request which isn't, you know, out of the ordinary, why say 'no'? Is this forum for the benefit of the moderators, or the people who use the forum?

Let me summarize this attitude in one word: martinet.

* In English, the term martinet is usually used not in reference to the whip itself, but rather him who would use it, a person who demands strict adherence to set rules, especially such a person in the military. This sense of the word reputedly comes from the name of Jean Martinet, Inspector General of the army of Louis XIV and thus would be etymologically only by accident related to the earlier sense.

* In an extended sense, a martinet is any person for whom a strict adherence to rules and etiquette is paramount: martinets often use etiquette and other rules as an excuse to trump ethics, to the point that etiquette loses its ethical ground. The Ugandan dictator Idi Amin was famously described as a "strutting martinet" by Time in 1977.


And this is why democracy was invented.

[yoritomo]

You're still not getting a Vs. Nids thread.

[voraciousapathy]

You're tempting me to do terrible things. Terrible, terrible things.

[voraciousapathy]

Alright, that does it.

Who wants a vs Yoritomo thread?