Speculation: Questions about 5th ed

[coredump]

Lictors:
Preferred enemy is much improved.
Flesh hooks are improved.
Bad news... the enemy gets to counter charge, and we really can't take a lot of hits in return.
I think you will still be okay against small units, Eldar reapers, or 5 man Dev squads, but you have to be careful, no more clearing the kill zone.
What you will not be able to do, is tie up a large unit for a turn by hitting just the edge.
It may be worthwhile to use 2 lictors in tandem when hitting infantry units.
It will still be awesome to use the lictor with another unit, such as HGs, or even gargs. (Hey, I bet preferred enemy works with bioplasma...)

Against tanks... they automatically hit rear armor, so it will be easier to DS next to the vehicle, and you can stay in terrain, so you still get the way cool 2+ armor save.

And, as mentioned, there are only 3 missions, one has most things in reserve, so Lictor will help with that. And it can help any scuttling/infiltrating units use Outflank.

So, I think the lictor is a better use of points then it was before, but not in all areas. You need to be more careful when assaulting infantry.

[coredump]

Run:
I am waiting to see how this plays out. And I think it will not affect our matches as much as others.
Mostly, it will help those with slow and tough CC units. Most of our assault units already have fleet.
And most that we play against do *not* want to run towards us.
If they run away, they aren't shooting.... so fine too

It seemed like a huge change in the rules, but I am not sure it will play out that way. I think it will help a few models/units in each army (fex, CC dread, assault termies, etc) but thats about it. Any assault unit that runs, can't charge... not a good trade off for an assault unit. So it will help on turn 1. It will help the orks, but really, who else wants to use it?
CC flyrant, on turn 1 maybe
Assault units, can't assault
shooty units, can't shoot

[coredump]

TLoS and meatshields:

Okay, this is based on a bit of conjecture. The wording in the 4E rules is that cover must 'partially obscure' in order to provide a cover save. So, if my warriors are on a hill, and your Fex is far enough behind a wall, that my warriors can see over the wall, and see *all* of your model, you do not get a cover save.
I am pretty sure this is the same for 5E, cover must partially obscure to provide a benefit.

This becomes a big deal when dealing with screening units.
Situation 1.
Grots are out front screening Orks. The orks don't want to get charged, so they are keeping the grots 6-7" in front of the orks. Well, my Fex is tall enough that those grots are *not* obscuring the orks at all. Thus they do *not* get a cover save from the grots.
Situation 2
My 3 sniper fexes are moving forward, right behind (1") a wall of termagants. They are close enough to the fexes that they are not obscuring the fexes LoS towards the target marines, so no 4+ save for the marines. But... they are obscuring the view of the marines, so the fex will get a 4+ save.

edit: I meant to mark this part as possible, but even more guesswork, but I forgot. Westrider has pointed out that it won't work.
endedit.
Next tricky part... to get credit for being in cover, more than half of your models must be affected. So it sure seems like....
(extreme example)
You have a wall of gaunts, spaced out.
You have a wall of stealers behind them, spaced out, they are behind the gaunts, but positioned 'between' the gaunts.
The marines player can now see all of the stealers, and none of them are obscured, so the stealers do not get the 4+ save.

[ryshi]

True i can see you being correct. Though the wording for the screening units cover would almost lead me to believe as long as the unit is in front of the unit trying to gain a coversave(I don't remember the wording exactly per say but I did get a glance at this at my local shop while everyone was at games day they were playing a game using 5ed rules), they get it. Though I do think a terrain height advantage would take away the cover save.

[warhammer158]

Jun 19, 2008 6:40:39 GMT @ryshi said:

Oh one more thing missed on the topic of newfound 5th edition lictor use. First off with outflanking moves, pheromone trail becomes even more useful, and with the dawn of war deployment keeps heavy use.

Then lets not forget his stealth rule. +2 to cover save, do people realize how gross this really is with intervening troops now giving a 4+ ? Dear god, time to max me a squad of lictors.

all this and still no-one has mentioned the 'go to ground' rule... this means the unit can sacrifice its next turn to get +1 to cover save.. this means a lictor would get a 2+ cover in woods (5+ for woods, +2 for lictor, + 1 going to ground) wow!.
then lets not forget gaunts and stealers using this rule..

[omnivore]

Actually most woods in 5th will give a 4+ cover save now so Lictors will be sitting pretty with a 2+ even without pinning themselves.

Lictors may actually be more useful appearing in terrain near enemy but not actually attacking immediately. Rather they would be waiting in cover until the rest of the swarm arrives. They can then assist in assault and get the most use out of their feeder tentacles.

Given the fearless rules, combat resolution rules and the defender pile in rules, it is suicide for a lictor to attack a unit. Tanks though will go down very easy with the rear armor rule (even non-rending hits can pen armor 10 with a 5 and glance with a 4).

[beefchief117]

Also dont the new rules for infiltrators make it so that infiltrating squads come in as reserve if they choose to come on any board edge rather than the normal 18" or 12" deployment? Because lictors would really help the broodlord come in when you want him to come in with his pherome trail rules. (I am not sure about the infiltrating rules for 5th ed. so if I am wrong please correct me.)

[invictus]

Actually I did mention the go to ground rule earlier. Doesn't work for MC's though lol. Problem with going to ground is that you lose your next turn (count as pinned) So only if you really need it use it.

Infiltrating does not allow them to come on from any table edge. It would be the small edges only.

Cover from units is based on what body parts are covered (head, body, legs). Has to be 50% I think is what it said for you to get a cover save. So bring out those decorative rocks...

*edit* oops I didn't mention the goto ground rule here yet. Forgot to post it while at work....

[WestRider]

Jun 19, 2008 18:15:39 GMT coredump said:

Next tricky part... to get credit for being in cover, more than half of your models must be affected. So it sure seems like....
(extreme example)
You have a wall of gaunts, spaced out.
You have a wall of stealers behind them, spaced out, they are behind the gaunts, but positioned 'between' the gaunts.
The marines player can now see all of the stealers, and none of them are obscured, so the stealers do not get the 4+ save.

OK, I'm totally not sure about the vertical part of the screening, so I'm leaving that out. However, there's a bit in there that says that if you're drawing LoS to a model between two Models from a single third Unit (i.e. the situation you described), they count as being obscured by the Unit, and get the cover save.

[cykosis]

I played my first game of 5th last night, just a 500 point game which ended in a draw.

One of the issues of the game that came up was LOS and the cover save shooting through units. His sentinel was shooting my warriors through my gaunts. The question was raised if they should get the save as the sentinel and warriors are taller than the gaunts. At the time we couldn't find a clear answer from the rule book what should happen. I was allowed the save and made it to keep the game going. Does anyone know if they should have got the save or not?

[coredump]

However, there's a bit in there that says that if you're drawing LoS to a model between two Models from a single third Unit (i.e. the situation you described), they count as being obscured by the Unit, and get the cover save.

I remembered wording like that from the pdf, but that was also about LoS, and is old news. Had not heard anything the same wording from recent reports. Makes sense though, as it 'follows' the 4E of "around and over, but not through" for MCs and vehicles. I have changed my post accordingly.

The question was raised if they should get the save as the sentinel and warriors are taller than the gaunts. At the time we couldn't find a clear answer from the rule book what should happen. I was allowed the save and made it to keep the game going. Does anyone know if they should have got the save or not?

I have not re-checked this from the rulebook, but....
Both being taller is not an issue, directly.
Check the 5E book where they first talk about cover, and when a model will get a cover save. I believe it has similar wording to 4E (p.25) whereas cover saves apply when the model is partially obscured. Also, the LoS is measured from the models actual eyes, (gun for a vehicle); so if I am correct, then the only way you would lose the cover save, is if the sentinal can 'see' your entire model over the top of the gaunts. (And as Westrider points out, seeing them between the gaunts doesn't help.)

I have heard rumor (meaning I don't know the source well, or only heard it in passing) that a vehicle has to be covered by more than 50% to get a cover save. I don't know if this applies to a MC also.

[sirk]

I agree on most that have been said about lictors.
I opened a thread for it, but it was before time (sorry ) so, I paste here my comments, trying to resume every point discussed.

About the lictor in 5t ed.

First let me say that I really hated him in 4th.
It was a nice idea, but those 80 pts were really HUGE. basically it was a stealer with 6 strength, 2 wounds and some nice additional rules, definitly not enough for 80 points

let's see in 5th.

Lictor has both tendrills and hooks, and both biomorph get a boost in 5th.
with hooks he will be able to assault into cover quite well and that is good since, deepstiking in cover, he often assaulted inside them.
tendrills is even better (it will OUR biomorph untill we get a new codex) and since he can popup wherever we need him he could be a great boost to an important assault that turn (winged tyrant for example) giving rerolls to almost all models there.

his other ability is the +2 cover save and we know how many cover saves we will make in 5th edition!! basically, he would be "kinda" invulnerable 2+ for ranged attacks.

but not all news are good.
the consolidation of units after the assault makes REALLY difficult for single units to take into larger ones. it will be difficult even for a winged rant! so his use will more limited (small units, vehicles, help another unit assault)

finally the outflank rule makes all those scuttling and infiltrating stealers even more valuable and now all our flyers could deepstrike, so the lictor reroll for reserve units could also help a lot.

oh, almost forgotten, in 4th, being loner, he couldn't take objectives.
so good, now he wouldn't be able anyway
8)

All in all I think 5th could be a good edition for lictor and, if I would have rated him 5 in a 1-10 range in 4th, I think now he could be a full 7.


PS: so bad the miniature is SO hugly!!! I'll make it from warrior parts with a bit of fantasy ^^

[Haraio [MALAL]]

I just checked this page on GW website: uk.games-workshop.com/warhammer40000/preview3/2/

I know this has nothing to do with us Nids, but:

Vehicles can now ram eachother? I didn't know that.

[Elaitor]

By taking a sneak-peak into the PDF (of the manual they are currently using for the demo games in the stores), it seems that 5th edition is somewhere between 4th and 2nd edition. Vehicles being able to ram each other, and buildings getting their own stats again (meaning we might risk going back to a scenery-blasting mayhem like 2nd ed was), are sort of proof of this.

I just hope history won't repeat itself, and nothing like 2nd edition will happen again. People sometimes got a little to happy about being able to blow up everything (not to mention the old Ripper Swarms, which could actually EAT the battleground).
But with the new LOS rules and all, I guess it will get necessary to blow up a building or two, since rooting out a squad inside it could prove too difficult.

[teuras]

If buildings are getting Armor Values now - and you can either shoot or assault them to get rid of enemies inside them. Does it say in the book if we can also assault empty buildings? Thinking about Hormas and Raveners, move 6 + Run 6 + Assault 12 into a building hopefully outside of LOS from enemies.