Nidzilla is DOA

[hiveoverall]

Hopefully someone will soon jump in here with a way to make nidzilla work, (Nearly ?) no one has had like 10 games yet I’d wager with the new tools

[purestrain]

With a force of monsters that can do better than just okay melee? Swarmy sling is always a thing, but basically giving up the entirety of the shooting phase just to "see how it goes" doesnt seem like a good idea, as was then relayed back to us by OP.

Now we know full melee with toxicrenes isnt a winning measure vs marines. Perhaps more of the side Guns and perhaps hybrid units.

I know that horde clearing warriors are tough if you invest (enhanced resistance if you have IC in your meta, +2 Cover if not,1cp -1 damage, give them catalyst) as kronos with simbiostorm, but exocrines work well vs teq even without it, although it will bring greater amounts of 2d attacks landing and thats something thats good vs Transhuman strat and coupled with increased damage on a monsters ranged weapon and his 1cp strat to be able to hide or pod in and get into decent position after the 1st rounds onslaught and still fire effectively is invaluable as a counter hit system or safety net.

More acidfex? Dakkatyrant/fex in a custom HF with Monsters Ignore move for heavy and move/advance for assault? Mobile exocrine with the option of double shots and bs3 for 1cp?

+1 hit 1w/turn Hive fleet with OOE Swarmy and some haru with devilgaunt backup?

I swear this all boils down to whether or not the FAQ says Bio Metalic-Cysts affect every type of Talons (as I play it, RAI) or only the Gribbly/mawloc version of them, because having ap-4 is just the best with monsters, feels like 7th but with actual damage with the armor pen

[bigpig]

Nidzilla game WIN at local event this weekend.

Thought about a new thread but figured I'd stick with Matt's.

I haven't been around much of late (though I have been playing nids this season) but poking my head back in with the new book. I did manage a win against a rather nasty Iron Hands tournament list yesterday. I only played one round in the tourney to test out this concept before having to leave. My opponent was a seasoned GT winner (so not a seal) and his list was one I went 4-1 with at Dicehammer GT last weekend only losing on the top table.

My list (from memory):

Build a Bear Hive fleet with +1 to hit on charge and 4+++ to OW
Malanthrope
Broodlord
2xNuerothrope
18 Termagaunts
18 Termagaunts
3 rippers
3 ripper
3 ripper
3 ripper
Toxicrene
Fex 2xscytals
Fex 2xscytals
Fex 2xscytals
6 Hive Guard
3 Biovore
3 Biovore
Scythed Hierodule (5++ adaptation)

His List
Feirros
Techmarine
Primaris LT
6 Intercessors
5 Infiltrators
2x Invictor Suit with autocannons
Thunderfire cannon
Repulsor Execution with Laser destroyer
3x Stormhawk with lastalon and skyhammer
3 Eliminators
3 ELiminators
5 bolter scouts
Impulsor with shield dome

Upshot of the play is he castled in a far corner so I could not get to him turn one. I managed to hide the Hierodule (went first) while advancing behind big LoS in middle and came up the other side of the LoS with the rest of the big boys. Killed some vanguard units with broodlord and some more with a carnifex and termagaunts. He proceded to kill 2 fex and the toxicrene on his turn of shooting. Turn 2 I got the hierodule and broodlord into combat. Hierodule was... "meh." Next turn Catalyst Hierodule got lucky and saved 2 of 3 Executioner cannon shots and then shrugged a lot of the smaller gun fire surviving with a few wounds. He followed by doing "meh" again in combat before eventually dying the next round. Pretty much what I expected.

Stars of the match were Hive Guard (surprise), Neurothropes, and rippers (who scored objectives and destroyed one of his aircraft by DSing in and zoning out his movement)

My thoughts on the match are;
Heirodule is dead: Too EXPENSIVE for what you get. He is too swingy in damage and is still wounding on 3s no matter what. He is unlikely to shoot early on due to needing to advance and is reliant on psychic support
Hive Guard are still one of the best units we have
The other big boys did shrug a lot of firepower and lower prices may help them. More experimentation coming without the dule.
Biovores seem at a good price but one unit of 3 is probably enough to move block a few choke points.
Genestealers are still our most killy unit but suck against marines with now represent about 25% of the field (TFC tremor shells and lots of shots).\

I'm thinking of the following combo to start my new nidzilla approach on;
Trygon prime with relic adrenals bringing in some killy melee in the tunnel. Maybe supported by other melee in pod (Haruspex maybe?) or more little guys brought in with a second trygon. Add in the Hunters Drive strat pinging off a Tyrant with HVC or even the Primes own shooting and that prime is doing a 4d6 charge drop two. With a reroll we should be pretty reliable for 8". Follow with HIve Instinct and charge the Primes target and anything else and everything else coming in doing 4d6 drop two as well. A few moving parts and falls flat on those games where Prime fails, but I think it might be viable and better than all your Genestealers shot off table while they wade through tremor shells.

[bigpig]

I've also had some luck with Jormungander Fexen with HVC and deathspitters vs marines.

[No One]

bigpig said:

With a reroll we should be pretty reliable for 8".

Relic AG replaces AG: so it's 9" 3d6, or 8" requiring something to proc the 3d6 (without worsening charge). Can't remember the maths, but I don't think 4d6 drop 2 really adds much for the 9" charge: I think ~80%, which is good, but not reliably make 2 charges good. Definitely think there could be something here, but I doubt stealers: I think it's got to be an AG follow up, since that's both almost guaranteed if you get 3d6, and respectably likely if you don't.

[bigpig]

Dec 16, 2019 1:30:03 GMT No One said:

bigpig said:

With a reroll we should be pretty reliable for 8".

Relic AG replaces AG: so it's 9" 3d6, or 8" requiring something to proc the 3d6 (without worsening charge). Can't remember the maths, but I don't think 4d6 drop 2 really adds much for the 9" charge: I think ~80%, which is good, but not reliably make 2 charges good. Definitely think there could be something here, but I doubt stealers: I think it's got to be an AG follow up, since that's both almost guaranteed if you get 3d6, and respectably likely if you don't.

I was thinking Hormagaunts more than likely. Would have to math it out and see if 4d6 for 9 (closer read I think you are right, which is silly.... thanks GW) or 3d6 for 8 is better. I agree that 80% isn't reliable enough but it is better than trudging up the field and getting shot to bits . That means at least one fail over an event, but lets face facts that our mono builds aren't going to win any GT or majors while marines are where they are

[No One]

bigpig said:

I was thinking Hormagaunts more than likely. Would have to math it out and see if 4d6 for 9 (closer read I think you are right, which is silly.... thanks GW) or 3d6 for 8 is better.

thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/980404/thread. 83% compared to 90% with rerolls.

[mattblowers]

Dec 16, 2019 1:19:25 GMT bigpig said:

Heirodule is dead: Too EXPENSIVE for what you get. He is too swingy in damage and is still wounding on 3s no matter what. He is unlikely to shoot early on due to needing to advance and is reliant on psychic support

^^
This. So much this. Against good players this is the reality. More to come.

[mattblowers]

Dec 15, 2019 10:13:48 GMT xtztxtxz said:

I'm not convinced that Nidzilla is dead based on this list though. Hierodules are way overcosted and that Toxicrenes have a weak statline, yet that's 40% of the points here. We know that Flyrants & Exocrines are still money, while Mawlocs & Maleceptors have untested potential. I suspect in the current marine-heavy meta you would get a lot of mileage from 2-3 Bioplasma cannons.

I don't know, the challenge to me seems broader than that and I plan on starting a series of threads to discuss it. I tend to be a big picture person where I see patterns in data to help develop plans to work with future projections to achieve mission goals for the future (that's what I do IRL and I'm pretty decent at it, though I never really employed those skills in 40K). I had an epiphany in my last game sometime around midnight where I realized I had been approaching the game with the wrong mindset and what I needed to change about my approach to feel better towards the game. But more on that later.

Yes the hierodule is overcosted, but I don't know if there is a reasonable cost at which I would take him. He simply lacks in too many areas. The toxicrenes did (please do not swear) all in any of my games besides hold objectives and give up big game hunter. They are close, but this ain't horseshoes or hand grenades. I love how they look and they are made remarkably better with prey sight. If they could grab flyers, wow, they would be awesome: charge a flyer and pay a CP to watch them crash and burn on a 3+ (maybe a rerollabe S vs. T roll off for flyers?).

The problem with our melee big 'uns is that they hit on 4s and it gets worse. Not to mention they typically degrade in WS/S/A. It's a trifecta. The toxicrenes on the other hand, with this custom hive fleet trait hit on 2/3/4 and get to reroll wounds thereby circumventing the issues we always said they have. The problem is: this turns out not to be the problem. I spent 375 points and $240 to prove it wasn't the problem. The problem is that they typically get killed before they get there.

Flyrants are still money? Why? Where? I don't agree. Flyrants are easy points. If you can't kill flyrants in ITC, your list isn't going to win anyway.

Exocrines? Maybe. I just spent $150 to find out.

Mawlocs? Naw. I own 6 and this ain't 7th. If your list can't shrug a few mortals, you need to re-assess.

Maleceptor? No evidence either way.But on 12-15-19 I'm going on record as saying they won't be a thing before #1 (heck or #2) Big FAQ 2020. Prove me wrong.

[bolzor]

I still theorize that launching 2 Maleceptor Torpedoes into an enemy line on T1 is a surefire way to cause that opponent to panic and dump every piece of firepower they can muster into them. The newest distraction Carnifex is born!

Now I just need to get 2 kits to test that theory. Nidzilla wild goose chase here I come!

[wormlord666]

Could a carnifex stampede be a solution to nidzilla problem? Shure you’d loose a few on their way up but with their -1 Spore clous and possibly a maleceptor help they might make some use. With prey sight they’d be hitting on 2 re-roll ones, right? With swarmy you’d be able to get then up there fast.
You’d need stuff to clear ruins and buildings as well. I’d love the sight of carnifex horde...

[bigpig]

Dec 16, 2019 7:27:46 GMT wormlord666 said:

Could a carnifex stampede be a solution to nidzilla problem? Shure you’d loose a few on their way up but with their -1 Spore clous and possibly a maleceptor help they might make some use. With prey sight they’d be hitting on 2 re-roll ones, right? With swarmy you’d be able to get then up there fast.
You’d need stuff to clear ruins and buildings as well. I’d love the sight of carnifex horde...

I don't think anything has really changed for Fex stampede. The problem of getting up the board still remains, as it always has. To me, it is a skew list that will do well against some armies and fail horribly against others.

[N.I.B.]

I wouldn't declare Nidzilla DOA on the basis of your particular mixed cc-build. Well, you could make a case that ALL nids are DOA with the trash-tier 30% ITC win rate we're currently sporting. But shooty Nidzilla worked pre-BoB and got a slight buff, should still be ok.

[bigpig]

Dec 16, 2019 8:38:13 GMT N.I.B. said:

I wouldn't declare Nidzilla DOA on the basis of your particular mixed cc-build. Well, you could make a case that ALL nids are DOA with the trash-tier 30% ITC win rate we're currently sporting. But shooty Nidzilla worked pre-BoB and got a slight buff, should still be ok.

For Nidzilla this is probably the best bet.

[kazetanade]

It's Flyrants and SL bruvs.

To be honest, I find it a bit funny but also heartening that what I've said about the Toxicrene since codex drop, someone has finally agreed to after experimentation =P

Anyway, I think our best things here are Hormagaunts, SL, HG. HG only got better, like x1.5 better type of level.

Flyrants are also playable now - with AG and SL providing a synapse for 3d6 charge, we have a great chance to get stuff into combat from the drop, which was one of the core problems with Triple Flyrant to begin with.

SL + 3 Flyrants are dastardly hard to deal with unless you have a lot of anti-tank guns. For overly shooty armies, getting all 4 of them locked into a non Flier basically seals the deal, preventing them from running and giving you your 1: protection from shooting 2: slingshot into their midst 3: time to leverage your mixed damage.

For mixed armies, the HG does a great job of dismantling a big threat every turn, ahd with the new adaptation is the big winner.

The Exocrene is a suicide distraction that just needs to kill like 100 or 130pts of actual scary guns to make up value. Taking out even a single Mortis Dread is a big deal, nevermind Contemptor or Redemptors. I would almost argue don't even bother with the Adaptation for him, just accept he's dying so maximizer his impact.

Hormagants are now bae. Fast movement, acceptable damage/cost per model for TS, a -1ap when needed. Behemoth makes that all possible, I love this new spell.