Tactics for all hive fleets?

[hivefleetkerrigan]

I'm new to posting on the forums and I'm trying to think of uses for all the hive fleets. Most seem obvious, but I am unsure of the use for Gorgon outside of running nidzilla. Thoughts or critques anyone?

Kraken: excellent all around. Allows for good movement and sneaking behind enemy lines.

Jormungandr: increases unit toughness and allows for shuttling in extra units via DS strategem.

Leviathan: increases army resilience. It's situational compared to jormungandr (if facing high AP armies and you have lots of synapse then Leviathan looks to be better)

Behemoth: good for charging off of DS, especially if equipped with adrenal glands. Otherwise, overshadowed by kraken.

Kronos: good for shooty detatchments. Warlord trait and strategem can be used to great effect as well.

Hydra: seems like you need to run a swarm to pull off Hydra. I could see it also being good against elite armies as genestealers would out number the enemy infantry.

Gorgon: the most effective way I can see to run Gorgon is either nidzilla or with lots of genestealers.

[wcgnidz]

I think your analysis of jormungandr, leviathan, and behemoth are a little overly simple but I mean you have the gist of it.

Like Jormungandr i view largely as a mid-field shooty/shooty build as well since cover only matters in shooting, whereas leviathan not only always*(within 6 of synapse) works but also works against mortal wounds which we otherwise could do little about. I personally pick leviathan BUT that's because I tend to run very combat oriented nids where I don't have a bunch of mid-range carnifex's and the like(which is where jorm really shines imo).

Behemoth I'd only add there are 1-2 useful stratagems in there too but I almost always pick kraken over behemoth. Behemoth over kraken on DS heavy charge nids though I'd say(at least maybe a small detachment, possibly with kraken as well).

Hydra, yeah you need a swarm. Which is why it's terrible. Instead of this adaptation you could take a malanthrope, have it's ability go off, and be even better off. This is the only adaptation that even if you build your list for the adaptation, you'll be fighting to keep your adaptation bonus.

Gorgon, honestly? Isn't bad but gets overshadowed. I would prob pick gorgon over hydra if I was choosing between the two for a large swarm army. But I probably wouldn't pick either at the end of the day.

[acehilator]

Behemoth is only worth it if you are playing an extremly DS heavy army with lots of units using AGs for the 8" charge after DS. If you only have one or two units coming in, don't bother, Kraken all the way.

Kronos default for the long range indirect fire: HG, Biovores, maybe for Rupturefexes under Malantrophe cover. Carnifexes, even when carrying a HVC, are better off as Leviathan or Jorm due to their medium/short range secondary guns.

So in short only four Hivefleets are worth using. Jorm vs Levi is a tossup, I much prefer Jorm because of their exclusive WL trait (I play on tables with lots of stuff that grants cover, I get sooo much mileage out of that).

[tomcaet]

Jun 9, 2018 14:00:01 GMT acehilator said:

So in short only four Hivefleets are worth using. Jorm vs Levi is a tossup, I much prefer Jorm because of their exclusive WL trait (I play on tables with lots of stuff that grants cover, I get sooo much mileage out of that).

Jorm internally complements nicely - if there's little cover on the board, the Adaptation works better, if there's a lot, the Trait gets better. If cover's easy to get, isn't Leviathan better though?

[kazetanade]

Jun 11, 2018 14:24:29 GMT tomcaet said:

Jun 9, 2018 14:00:01 GMT acehilator said:

So in short only four Hivefleets are worth using. Jorm vs Levi is a tossup, I much prefer Jorm because of their exclusive WL trait (I play on tables with lots of stuff that grants cover, I get sooo much mileage out of that).

Jorm internally complements nicely - if there's little cover on the board, the Adaptation works better, if there's a lot, the Trait gets better. If cover's easy to get, isn't Leviathan better though?

Not when big bugs dont get cover unless they're mostly blocked and also in a terrain piece. Jorm is THE midrange shooting gallery adaptation for anything not an Infantry/Swarm.

Leviathan promotes more aggression; its Adaptation works in combat, its strategem works in combat. Getting there is the harder work though.

I think Behemoth is usable as a side detachment. Trygons and their contents, Gargoyles, Flyrant/pod drops. Not a main detachment tho.

Gorgon... well, i kinda see Shrikes and Flyrants, but Kraken would be better so... its sad.

[acehilator]

tomcaet: Echoing what kaze said, Jorm is still really nice for monsters because you can deploy strictly according to enemy deployment and range of your equipped weapons, no need to try to gain cover from terrain pieces. And with a 2+ armor save monsters still profit from Jorm against AP -4 weapons, which is nice. And, if the recent Deathwatch FAQ is any indication, you are not losing the Jorm bonus against units with the ability to ignore cover (Imperial Fist/Iron Warriors chapter tactic, Dark Angels Huntmaster etc.), which is super dope.

[kazetanade]

@ acehilator, what is that ruling???

[tomcaet]

Cover for the big bugs, got it. Not convincing for me yet, but maybe sometime if I play more big bugs.

The Deathwatch FAQ is about another case, we still lose the cover benefits if another rule says so. Being in cover and benefitting from cover are now definitely (FAQ-supported) separate. Jormungandr covered bugs aren't easier to hit with the Dragonfire bolts if they stay away from regular cover.

[acehilator]

kazetanade tomcaet

Deathwatch FAQ question:

Q: How do Dragonfire bolts behave when shooting units that
aren’t in cover, but have a rule that means they have ‘the
benefit of cover’ (e.g. Jormungandr units with the Tunnel
Networks ability)? Would you still add 1 to the hit rolls for
Dragonfire bolts?
A: No. You add 1 to the hit rolls against units that are in
cover (i.e. entirely on or within a terrain feature). Units
receiving the benefit of cover while not being in cover do
not count.


For reference, rules text for the ammunition in question:

Add 1 to the hit rolls for this
weapon when targeting a unit
that is in cover.


The distinction between "being in cover" and "benefiting from cover" is exactly why it works in our favour. All cover-ignoring rules that I checked so far (Imperial Fist/Iron Warrior traits, Dark Angels Talonmaster, Baneblade variants weaponry etc.) always negate the bonus of "being in cover", but Jormungandr grants "the benefit of cover". If the ammunition does not work because of the distinction, the cover-ignoring rules don't work either.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Jun 11, 2018 18:49:38 GMT acehilator said:

The distinction between "being in cover" and "benefiting from cover" is exactly why it works in our favour. All cover-ignoring rules that I checked so far (Imperial Fist/Iron Warrior traits, Dark Angels Talonmaster, Baneblade variants weaponry etc.) always negate the bonus of "being in cover", but Jormungandr grants "the benefit of cover". If the ammunition does not work because of the distinction, the cover-ignoring rules don't work either.

Note: this then means that hive guard impalers don't pierce through jorm either.

Thanks for the responses, all! I couldn't see a great use case for Gorgon, so I guess I wasn't missing anything there then.

[gigasnail]

That's so confusing and unnecessary and will do nothing but lead to arguments

[acehilator]

Essentially what it boils down to is this:

If your cover bonus comes from a piece of terrain it can be negated by "ignore cover" abilities, if it comes from another source (Jormungandr or AdMech Shroudpsalm are probably the most prominent examples) it can't.

Not really confusing, but it should have been part of the Big FAQ. Maybe it didn't came up often enough.

[gigasnail]

It's not really confusing per se but yeah any opponent not up on this is going to argue and give you dirty looks on this.

[acehilator]

That is why I carry all relevant FAQs for my army in printed form, guess I'll add this one to the pile. It is a bit of a hassle, but I very much prefer the "living rules" approach to having unusable stuff or contradicting rules for years (not this one problem in particular, just generally speaking).

[mrdodo]

Jun 11, 2018 19:50:40 GMT acehilator said:

Essentially what it boils down to is this:

If your cover bonus comes from a piece of terrain it can be negated by "ignore cover" abilities, if it comes from another source (Jormungandr or AdMech Shroudpsalm are probably the most prominent examples) it can't.

Not really confusing, but it should have been part of the Big FAQ. Maybe it didn't came up often enough.

I am very sorry, but this is incorrect. It has allready been resolved and put in the FAQ. See the ad mech FAQ :

Q: Does a weapon that ignores cover ignore the benefit bestowed by the Shroudpsalm Canticle?     A: Yes.

Easy to not notice, because its in a FAQ from another army, but well now you know