ETC format event... A tale of two lists

[benlisted]

So, got an ETC format event somewhat soon that I would like people's opinion on a few lists for. The format is basically Eternal War, Maelstrom, Tertiaries and KP all in one, with total VP difference determining TPs. This means if you table your opponent you win big, leading to the many all-or-nothing lists the last actual ETC was infamous for. In any case, I'd like to bring something to compete, not aiming to top though.

List building restrictions are as follows:
- No Forgeworld
- 3 detachments without repetition

The bolded part creates the issue. I think a Nid list typically wants at least around 10 CP, given that you can spend 7+ easily in turn 1 (Kraken adv, double shoot, overrun, adrenal surge for instance). In a format that allowed 2 battalions, I'd probably do that, one Kronos, one Kraken, and quite easily approach that mark. But if I want those levels of CP in this format I have to take a Brigade. Enter list 1...

List 1: Kraken Brigade - 12 CP

Swarmy
Flyrant w/ MRC/2x Dev, TS, AG, Chameleonic (Warlord)
Neuro

20 Genes, scytal, 5 acid
20 Genes, scytal, 5 acid
10 termas
10 termas
3 rippers
3 rippers

6 HG, Impalers
3 Venoms
Pyrovore

30 Gargs, AG
3 Meiotics
Mucolid

Biovore
Biovore
Biovore

Tcyte w/ DS


Shame to lose out on rerolling 1s for the HG, and the anti-psyker shenanigans, but I don't know if they're worth cutting myself down to 7-8CP for... However, I did wonder about the amount of tax I had to take in this list, and thought that perhaps I could cut that down with some judicious application of grand alliance Nids...


List 2: Grand Alliance Nids - 7 CP

Nid Kraken Battalion:
Swarmy
Broodlord

20 Genes
20 Genes
3 rippers

3 Venoms
6 HG w/ Impalers

30 AG Gargs
3 Meiotics

T-cyte w/ DS

Cult Patrol:
Magos
13 Neophytes

Guard Supreme Command:
Company Commander w/ Kurov's Aquila & Grand Strategist
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker



So in theory, this list should generate at least 10 CP off of its own strat use - with the Aquila I can easily reasonably expect to generate 2 more, bringing it functionally to the same total as the Brigade list. The question is, does this give better value than the full Nid list? Basically I swap: the Neuro, the Flyrant, 3 rippers, 20 termas, a Pyro, a Mucolid and 3 Biovores FOR the company commander, 2 primaris, a magos, 13 neos, and a broodlord. A ton more psykers in general, but loses the spore drops and a few Nid powers.

What do people think?

[zarenkenial]

Which ETC style event are you prepping for? I happen to be prepping for an ETC event as well so I will share my input.


Firstly, the no duplicate detachment thing can be a hindrance but, I also don't think you need to necessarily go nuts chasing CP. For me, it's either straight up brigade as you have done in list 1 or, battalion with 2 other +1 CP detachments.

With the brigade list, Kraken isn't a bad choice (as there are several units in your list who can use it effectively) but, I think you will really need to max out on the Hive fleet potential by maybe adjusting things to have 3-4 12 man genestealer squads for your troops and try dumping the rippers? Hard to say. Hive Guard are really gunna miss those re-rolls of 1 and I'm personally not a fan of Swarmy solo on the ground. It's usually at least Tyrant Guard or a pod. Often the latter... He is also sucking alot of points for his ability. I'm not saying it's bad (even thinking of a list that uses him) but, I would suggest being a bit more protective. If you can't hid him well enough, he will not be hard to delete if you go second and your opponent points their big guns at him. He needs either guard or a pod IMO.

If I were going to go the mono route with a brigade, I might consider going Leviathan and bringing plenty of wounds and board control options. The 6+++ really stacks up and can make a high wound count list a tough to crack. It is an entirely different list though and would essentially be a re-write of what you got posted.

Your second list appeals to me more in the fact that you are not hampered by running a mono HF. I'm not sure though of the offensive punch of your non-battalion detachments. Company Commander is giving you the CP generation you are after but, a CC with 2 primaris, magus, and 13 neophytes doesn't cut it for me. Smite nerf (if it will apply to your event) will reduce the effectiveness of the primaris' and magus and don't bring much aside from it. I also assume the battalion is Kraken so the Hive Guard are still missing them sweet re-rolls. I would suggest making your supreme command 3 magus' (their powers synergize much better with your Tyranid counterparts), drop the venoms and whatever number of stealers you might need for points, and swap the patrol for a Kronos spearhead with 3 biovores, Neuro, and a nice home for your HG. I think it would maximize your offensive potential and 8 CP is enough to get you by. It's enough to make a big turn or to use them sparingly and effectively over 2-3 turns.

[benlisted]

The Stockport one coming up, are you attending? Cheers vm for all the feedback.

I do agree on the HG front - it is irksome that they lose the reroll 1s, but those 4 extra CP are really useful. I had been experimenting with what else I could fit in that might replace them - largely a devilgant unit so I get to use one of our best strats (and a great wrap clearer) but the Trygon is costly and basically means I end up dropping something else, which has to be the gargs really. Still, if I have gants to delete wrap maybe gargs to tie it up is less essential!

My bad on the swarmy pod front, both lists do have one - I just forgot to write it in. I agree that I think it’s very important for him, at least to have the option to use it. If there’s tons of LoS blockers and he will be safe, I can also drop a gene squad from it which is cool utility to have.

I do think Leviathan is decent, I just lurve the fallback and charge and how it facilitates assaulty armies, which I enjoy. I think if doing a Leviathan brigade I’d run into the same issue as wanting HG in a Kraken brigade though, that they’d be better in another hive fleet! Dakka flyrants are p much the only standout. That said, I love a good horde and might have a go at writing a list with lots of gribblies.

Interesting to hear you critique the offensive punch of the cult and AM detachments - purely as I personally didn’t see much difference in what I’d swapped out. On the psyker front I lose the neuro and tyrant for a broodlord, magos and 2 primaris - so whilst theres certainly a decline in nid powers i can use, Smite output has actually gone up, and the utility of mind control I think potentially makes up for that (you’re right though that if smite nerf is in play there might be an issue). The pyro and mucolid have marginal use so little gained there, termas are basically exchanged for neos so somewhat of a wash - no fearless but DS obsec potential. The biovores admittedly are pretty useful. I guess whilst I don’t think the difference in offence would be that great, I can perhaps see the utility of the pure nid list is greater? I suppose the question is, is the utility of Kurov’s aquila worth what you are forced to bring? Perhaps not with primaris psykers - what about a spearhead with 9 mortars, or 2 manticores and some mortars (replacing hive guard)? I feel like there’s a line somewhere but finding it is tricky.

I do hear what you’re saying re: kraken plus kronos though, and the anti psykerness of that combo is seriously tasty! I am not necessarily convinced on ditching the venoms though, as whilst they are not great for the points durability wise, if I can stick them out of LoS somewhere the genes in particular are going to love the durability. I will try and throw together a list in any case, and post a few alternatives up.

[zarenkenial]

Na. I'm in Canada and the ETC event I look forward to every year is a 4-5 man team event hosted by the guys at CanHammer.

Good to know too that Swarmy has a pod in the lists. I didn't dissect the points cost while looking at it. You're also absolutely right about the versatility of having your stealers reliably coming from "reserve" instead of Swarmy, given that he has the LOS blocking terrain needed.

Also happened to notice that your lists have meiotic spores and ETC doesn't allow FW so, you are gunna need to swap them out which will shave some points.

You should also inquire about the smite beta. If it isn't being adopted, list 2 or any variation of it would probably have more potential.

[blastarasta]

Jan 7, 2018 1:07:52 GMT benlisted said:

The Stockport one coming up, are you attending? Cheers vm for all the feedback.

I do agree on the HG front - it is irksome that they lose the reroll 1s, but those 4 extra CP are really useful. I had been experimenting with what else I could fit in that might replace them - largely a devilgant unit so I get to use one of our best strats (and a great wrap clearer) but the Trygon is costly and basically means I end up dropping something else, which has to be the gargs really. Still, if I have gants to delete wrap maybe gargs to tie it up is less essential!

My bad on the swarmy pod front, both lists do have one - I just forgot to write it in. I agree that I think it’s very important for him, at least to have the option to use it. If there’s tons of LoS blockers and he will be safe, I can also drop a gene squad from it which is cool utility to have.

I do think Leviathan is decent, I just lurve the fallback and charge and how it facilitates assaulty armies, which I enjoy. I think if doing a Leviathan brigade I’d run into the same issue as wanting HG in a Kraken brigade though, that they’d be better in another hive fleet! Dakka flyrants are p much the only standout. That said, I love a good horde and might have a go at writing a list with lots of gribblies.

Interesting to hear you critique the offensive punch of the cult and AM detachments - purely as I personally didn’t see much difference in what I’d swapped out. On the psyker front I lose the neuro and tyrant for a broodlord, magos and 2 primaris - so whilst theres certainly a decline in nid powers i can use, Smite output has actually gone up, and the utility of mind control I think potentially makes up for that (you’re right though that if smite nerf is in play there might be an issue). The pyro and mucolid have marginal use so little gained there, termas are basically exchanged for neos so somewhat of a wash - no fearless but DS obsec potential. The biovores admittedly are pretty useful. I guess whilst I don’t think the difference in offence would be that great, I can perhaps see the utility of the pure nid list is greater? I suppose the question is, is the utility of Kurov’s aquila worth what you are forced to bring? Perhaps not with primaris psykers - what about a spearhead with 9 mortars, or 2 manticores and some mortars (replacing hive guard)? I feel like there’s a line somewhere but finding it is tricky.

I do hear what you’re saying re: kraken plus kronos though, and the anti psykerness of that combo is seriously tasty! I am not necessarily convinced on ditching the venoms though, as whilst they are not great for the points durability wise, if I can stick them out of LoS somewhere the genes in particular are going to love the durability. I will try and throw together a list in any case, and post a few alternatives up.

Beta smite rules are in play for Cally I think (albeit a modified bersion that does hurt "mini" smites like GK and thousand sons) and I'm pretty sure FW is permitted. 

Went to the one day event in stockport yesterday and there was only a couple of nids players in attendance, myself being one. 

I must say that casting more than 3/4 smite is incredibly hard. Not only is it harder to cast, the -1 each time to cast means that armies with modest psychic denial will be denying left, right and centre.. I had 5 psykers yesterday and I think only in one game (and one psychic phase over the three games) did I manage to get smite off on all 5 of my duders.

How much have you play tested the brigade? when I try it I feel like I'm lacking damage output as theres too much fat in the list

[benlisted]

Jan 7, 2018 1:54:49 GMT zarenkenial said:

Na. I'm in Canada and the ETC event I look forward to every year is a 4-5 man team event hosted by the guys at CanHammer.

Good to know too that Swarmy has a pod in the lists. I didn't dissect the points cost while looking at it. You're also absolutely right about the versatility of having your stealers reliably coming from "reserve" instead of Swarmy, given that he has the LOS blocking terrain needed.

Also happened to notice that your lists have meiotic spores and ETC doesn't allow FW so, you are gunna need to swap them out which will shave some points.

You should also inquire about the smite beta. If it isn't being adopted, list 2 or any variation of it would probably have more potential.

Ah, shame you’re not over here! And oh bloody hell, totally blanked on the fact that they are indeed FW, guess my plans to scupper non-nurgling infiltrators are scuppered then. Since I don’t hugely fancy saving the points for sporefield when it’ll cost me CPs as well. Have enquired about smite, so we shall see what the verdict is.

Jan 7, 2018 9:57:39 GMT blastarasta said:

Beta smite rules are in play for Cally I think (albeit a modified bersion that does hurt "mini" smites like GK and thousand sons) and I'm pretty sure FW is permitted. 

Went to the one day event in stockport yesterday and there was only a couple of nids players in attendance, myself being one. 

I must say that casting more than 3/4 smite is incredibly hard. Not only is it harder to cast, the -1 each time to cast means that armies with modest psychic denial will be denying left, right and centre.. I had 5 psykers yesterday and I think only in one game (and one psychic phase over the three games) did I manage to get smite off on all 5 of my duders.

How much have you play tested the brigade? when I try it I feel like I'm lacking damage output as theres too much fat in the list

It’s not cally I’m attending actually, will be War of the Roses in March, so a fair way out still. As such haven’t done a huge deal of play testing, am getting a game in tomorrow though - will try the brigade I think and see how i feel about the CPs and ‘fat’ in the list. How did you get on today anyway?

Yeah, just gotta wait and see what they say on the smite front tbh. Am expecting it to be in place if I’m honest, which I think pushes me away from using a magos supreme command and probably back towards just full nids, be that brigade or 3+1+1. Speaking of, here’s the concept I currently have for that type of list...

List 3 - Ditch the brigade, 8cp

Kraken Battalion:
Swarmy
flyrant, chameleonic, 2x dev, mrc, ag, ts

2x20 genes
29 termas

Tcyte w/ DS


Kraken Outrider:
Neuro

30 ag gargs
2 mucolids


Kronos Spearhead:
Neuro - soul hunger, warlord

3 biovores
6 HG


Aside from the rippers, who could easily be squeezed back in if I wanted, the main loss is the venoms. Without having trialled them I’m frankly unsure how much I’d miss them from the brigade list. I feel like I might be quite reliant on LoS blockers to keep my genes alive. I guess either the termas or the gargs could be swapped out for them if I do want em back.