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Post by mrdodo on Dec 24, 2017 20:38:10 GMT
hey hive,
I hope I am going to the London GT in May next year and am working on a tournament list with some prerequisites :
- The local tournaments are sometimes no FW allowed
- London GT only allows 1 of each type of detachment and max 3 detachments total
The reason I say I hope is because I have been in a big motorcycle accident and broke a lot of my body with not the greatest chances of full recovery.
But no point in sobbing, stay positive and work towards future!
I have a lot of time to think about lists now, but can't paint or try them out at the moment (both arms broken), so I came up with something I really like to try and want the hivemind opinion about :
++ Brigade Detachment +9CP (Tyranids) [96 PL, 1551pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
HQ :
Flying Hive Tyrant AG, Chameleonic Mutation, Monstrous Rending Claws, toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms
Power: Psychic Scream,The Horror
Neurothrope Power: Psychic Scream
Neurothrope Power: Catalyst, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Synaptic Lynchpin
Troops :
20x Genestealers 5x Acid Maw, 20x Rending Claws, 20x Scything Talons
30x Hormagaunt
3x Ripper Swarm
3x Ripper Swarm
23x Termagants 14x Fleshborer, 9x Spike Rifle
23x Termagants 14x Fleshborer, 9x Spike Rifle
Fast Attack :
10x Gargoyles
10x Gargoyles
1x Mucolid Spore
Heavy Support :
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Elites :
5x Hive Guard 5x Impaler Cannon
Lictor Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws
Lictor Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws
++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [23 PL, 296pts] ++
HQ :
Magus Power: Mind Control
Magus Power: Mass Hypnosis
Troops :
9x Neophyte Hybrids 9x autogun 1x Neophyte Leader Autogun, Autopistol
9x Neophyte Hybrids 9x autogun 1x Neophyte Leader Autogun, Autopistol
9x Neophyte Hybrids 9x shotgun 1x Neophyte Leader Shotgun, Autopistol
++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [8 PL, 153pts] ++
Regiment: Astra Millitarum/Imperium
HQ :
Company Commander Chainsword, Kurov's Aquila, Shotgun
Elites :
Command Squad 2x Veteran w/ Sniper rifle, Veteran Weapon Team with Mortar
5x Ratlings 5x sniper rifle
5x Ratlings 5x sniper rifle
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++ Total: [127 PL, 2000pts] ++
That is almost 200 models and precisely 50% of the units in reserve/scout
Main idea of the list is the fact that every model that can be shot at is single wound model. Who cares about the enemy lascannons? just as dangerous as a bolter against this list. All characters cant be targeted unless closest. hive guard should be behind solid cover because of no LOS needed. When you drop in lictors and hive tyrant they are the only juicy targets for multiwound weapons but they all have -1 to hit to keep them up as long as possible. So you effectively take out part of the power of your enemy shooting.
my own shooting will focus on everything with a lot of dakka. choosing between heavy bolter squad or lascannon squad? easy, take out the heavy bolters because they fire more, lascannons can take out only 1/3 of the models vs the heavy bolters. leman russ with 20 shot cannon or with battle canon? hive guard go for the 20 shot tank.
Some other key elements :
- enemy brings something big? morkanaut or land raider? take it over with your mindcontrol and have fun. While having fun take out even more of the enemy dakka.
- snipers is something we are lacking, so I bring some in with the brood brothers. Take out those pesky boosting characters of the enemy
- with 15 cp and chance of getting more (spend 1 for the aquilla, but that should pay itself back quickly and some psychologic warfare) go crazy with strategems.
- Quite a few psychic, but not so many that the incoming smite nerf wil really hit hard, enough great other psychic tests.
- its all about choosing when to bring in what. dont put in all in first turn, but wait for that perfect moment, where you can mind control that big unit, or drop in your hive tyrant after you destroyed the biggest threats to him. Having some models ready to drop in when you want gives a lot of flexibility
Sorry for the long post, this thread was typed with 1 finger! Please let me know what you think about the list and what the biggest weaknesses are or if I should change something. I cant wait to try this out to see how it performs.
greetings Mr. Dodo
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Post by blastarasta on Dec 24, 2017 23:11:41 GMT
Hey man.. I'm going the GT too. You get better, meet me there and I'll buy the first beer!
Now to the list..I think for sure it'll be a board control list.. maybe a different hive will suit it? Jorm maybe?
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Post by mrdodo on Dec 24, 2017 23:49:22 GMT
Hey man.. I'm going the GT too. You get better, meet me there and I'll buy the first beer! Now to the list..I think for sure it'll be a board control list.. maybe a different hive will suit it? Jorm maybe? deal!  yeah its all about taking the board and taking objectives while taking out key elements of enemy army. I played quite some matches 8th, won them all but not by tabling. I won 2 or 3 with just a few of my models on the table. (won 1 tournament by having the relic last turn with my last model  ) I dont think nids are made for tabling enemy, at least not my playstyle, I rather play them like a big game of chess. And with the above army I have a lot of pawns to play with. For the hive fleet I am indeed in doubt. I like kraken because of the speed a lot, gives me more flexibility and the double advance for genestealers normally gets them in combat first turn, and dont forget the good chameleon skin. Jorm also could be a good one cause not all of my units can be in cover, but I feel you are wasting it for all the units that are in cover themselves and it mostly helps big bugs who almost cant gain cover save normally. Kronos, Behemoth and leviathan are not what I am looking for, but gorgon and hydra are also interesting. Gorgon would probably be on top in the end cause with the number of low str attacks this list brings, the reroll 1 to wound is a great extra number of wounds. |
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Post by No One on Dec 25, 2017 3:47:30 GMT
Thoughts: Gorgon would probably be on top in the end cause with the number of low str attacks this list brings, the reroll 1 to wound is a great extra number of wounds. Why? It's the complete opposite of your game plan with basically all of the list. Kraken is very good for a board control list: 3d6 advance, double advance and fall back and recharge are all great. Also, reroll 1s to wound is worse with low strength attacks, not better. (Unless your mission pack states otherwise, you don't need to specify WL and powers: not hugely relevant for most of them, but say you come up against a cc/MSU shooting list? Taking double hyp and just have one as a back up/smite unit is going to be a good idea). On powers: I'd really strongly consider putting Onslaught in there somewhere. Very useful with opportunistic advance on everything bar the stealers: yes, you'll be using it on the stealers first. But if the stealers die (likely unless you get T1 I'd say), or once the stealers hits combat? Gives you a lot of mobility. Also, you've got an IG det but don't have the CC as WL for grand strategist? Why? I mean, sure you've already got a lot of CP, but you can always use more . Stuff like SMA and adrenaline surge really chew through CP and for such a board control list, I'd say being able to metabolic/opportunistic/overrun every turn would also be very helpful as well. Possible tweaks: - Add another HG for the full 6 for SMA - Give the gargs AG for an 8" charge, and possibly bulk them out - Drop some neos for the above (either patrol or sup command with another magus: probably only a good idea if you're taking CC WL) - Bulk out a neo squad and grab/swap for a primus for 3d6 ambush on a big squad to get where you want I find big squads a lot more helpful for area denial and cc touches/wraps: you've only got the stealers and horms, both of which start on the board likely going 2nd due to high unit count, hence the suggestion about bulking out some of the DS squads. (Not sure about the snipers: I've never really heard of anyone having success with them on either side, apart from maybe some ratling spam lists a while back. Just not sure if you've got the critical mass to deal with any useful characters in a timely manner). Edit: As to your general game plan...I think it's likely quite strong against some lists. But others? I can't see how you could compete against, say, Alaitoc: you don't have much answers to hemlocks/crimson hunters with -2 and the mobility to murder your one source of ranged (HG), Fly shuts down most of your board control/shooting mitigation, and you don't really have much anti-vehicle damage output. Also Alpha Legion (for completely different reasons). Anyway, best of luck on recovery. |
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Post by blastarasta on Dec 25, 2017 9:04:03 GMT
If you took grand strategist and maybe the aquilla - I doubt you'd need 14CP.. you could prob cut the fat from the brigade such as the lictors and just have 8 from 3 normal detachment
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Post by No One on Dec 25, 2017 9:25:08 GMT
If you took grand strategist and maybe the aquilla - I doubt you'd need 14CP.. you could prob cut the fat from the brigade such as the lictors and just have 8 from 3 normal detachment The issue with this, is that he can only run one of each det: so that'd mean he couldn't run a battalion with the GSC. And 8 CP with grand strategist is worse 16 CP without: considering that there isn't much 'fat' in there (the 2 lictors, 20 pt spore, and...that's it. The rest would be adjustable outside a brigade, but that doesn't mean they're not 'fat'). And 16 CP with grand strategist is better than 16 without . Now, having more CP from a different source would let him be a bit more flexible with the GSC det though, if desired. |
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Post by blastarasta on Dec 25, 2017 10:28:55 GMT
If you took grand strategist and maybe the aquilla - I doubt you'd need 14CP.. you could prob cut the fat from the brigade such as the lictors and just have 8 from 3 normal detachment The issue with this, is that he can only run one of each det: so that'd mean he couldn't run a battalion with the GSC. And 8 CP with grand strategist is worse 16 CP without: considering that there isn't much 'fat' in there (the 2 lictors, 20 pt spore, and...that's it. The rest would be adjustable outside a brigade, but that doesn't mean they're not 'fat'). And 16 CP with grand strategist is better than 16 without . Now, having more CP from a different source would let him be a bit more flexible with the GSC det though, if desired. He wouldnt have to duplicate though - the brigade can become a spearhead.. I can also say with some certainty as I've ran grand strategist plus aquilla at 8CP for the last 4 events I've been to (with imperial soup granted) but some games I don't even run out of CP.. a certain element of planning for CP use should be done I feel.. Turn 1 what is he actually going to use.. 1 CP ambush, 1cp double advance, 1 CP overun, 3 fight again.. should get 2 of them back so 4 spent.. get maybe 1 or 2 back in you oponants turn.. that being said guard aren' nearly as dependant on CP as nids appear to be.. so maybe a few extra is fine |
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Post by mrdodo on Dec 25, 2017 11:10:37 GMT
thanks guys, keep the good ideas coming, this is precisely what I need - Yeah Ill stick to kraken,so far I played all my games with it and it never lets me down. - true about the powers and warlord, but this was general idea. You are right, onslaught on the psychic scream neuro would be good idea - warlord CC and grand strategist, that is a great idea. I will be sure to do that, cause the synaptic lynchpin doesnt do that much (does the single reroll has to be the one of the rolls of the CC or can it be any roll from any unit) - as for the army I was thinking about indeed making the gsc a patrol detachment with 2 magus and 1 big unit of cult, saving me 50 points which gives me a 6th HG. but I think hiding 6 HG might be too difficult, maybe even 5, but I have to try it out. - the lictors are indeed fat, I was also thinking about 2 pyrovores instead to sit on objectives in my base but they are also mediocre (albeit cheaper) - I think snipers are underrated, indeed I also dont hear a lot about them, but they bring strenght against quite some lists even if the take out only 1 character before biting the dust (think about tau ethereal, eldar characters, Ig commanders or psykers, SM icon bearers or luitenants.) Even maybe putting some mortal wounds on characters like mort and gulli. I also found that shooting 1 round at characters suddenly makes the enemy focus a lot on taking out the snipers which saves the rest of your army from the shooting. About the lists you mention. I haven't played against hemlocks etc. yet so that would be interesting, but yeah I think that would be a very hard fight. I try to play matches in my head and against that army I haven't come up with a solution yet. But the flyer spam and vehicles I won my games against so far : against the flyers I focused on taking objectives and scoring points while killing everything on the ground so he wasnt able to get points. The only time I shot at his flyers was 2 times with mind controlled flyer of himself (took out 1, mind controlled his lascannon flyer to take out his dakka flyer) and if there was nothing elso in range to shoot. Against a lot of vehicles I strip his limited wrap to again jump in my 2 magus (in 2 seperate rounds and I gave the mind control both) to take over a big vehicle and shoot another. the hive guard can take out another per round and I try to touch them as much as possible. Yeah it might take some time to chew through them, but who cares if they can't shoot. besides that its slow but the mortal wounds of the snipers,biovores and smite also add up combined. Again I make sure I focus on the dakka vehicles. Alpha legion I also have not faced yet, but I faced death guard which was a very hard match (6 bloat drones with double flamers, those things are a (please do not swear) to bring down for that few points, it helps that when they explode they also hurt own units) So I am not certain what to expect from them. allthough every list will have its hard counters, tournaments are 33% decided by what opponents you get put against. (33% dice and 33% tactics) for example I never had a hard time against grey knights, just because we have a natural advantage against them. |
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Post by mrdodo on Dec 25, 2017 11:26:38 GMT
The issue with this, is that he can only run one of each det: so that'd mean he couldn't run a battalion with the GSC. And 8 CP with grand strategist is worse 16 CP without: considering that there isn't much 'fat' in there (the 2 lictors, 20 pt spore, and...that's it. The rest would be adjustable outside a brigade, but that doesn't mean they're not 'fat'). And 16 CP with grand strategist is better than 16 without . Now, having more CP from a different source would let him be a bit more flexible with the GSC det though, if desired. He wouldnt have to duplicate though - the brigade can become a spearhead.. I can also say with some certainty as I've ran grand strategist plus aquilla at 8CP for the last 4 events I've been to (with imperial soup granted) but some games I don't even run out of CP.. a certain element of planning for CP use should be done I feel.. Turn 1 what is he actually going to use.. 1 CP ambush, 1cp double advance, 1 CP overun, 3 fight again.. should get 2 of them back so 4 spent.. get maybe 1 or 2 back in you oponants turn.. that being said guard aren' nearly as dependant on CP as nids appear to be.. so maybe a few extra is fine Dont forget the 2 cp for sma and maybe 1 cp for reroll (so that makes 9 first turn). Nids have so many good strategems, I would really want to keep at least 12 cp. You dont run out of cp with IG? my regular IG opponent has 12 normally with the getting back stuff and runs out around turn 4 |
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Post by No One on Dec 25, 2017 11:40:28 GMT
Turn 1 what is he actually going to use.. 1 CP ambush, 1cp double advance, 1 CP overun, 3 fight again.. should get 2 of them back so 4 spent.. get maybe 1 or 2 back in you oponants turn.. that being said guard aren' nearly as dependant on CP as nids appear to be.. so maybe a few extra is fine Nids have more consistently useful (and probably just flat more useful) strats than guard. IG...the only one I can think of you'd use every turn is the shooting phase reroll (unless Cadian/Vostroyan: then the +1s). Some others are good, but one off (Tallarn, CP for dagger), or situational (defensive gunners/crush them), so they're not consistently draining CP. But nids? (Not necessarily likely, but feasible): Opportunistic and/or metabollic, reroll movement (either advance/CA), reroll psychic, SMA (+2), reroll charge, overun, adrenaline (+3). That's 10 T1. And most of those are things you would have potential opportunity to do every turn - SMA alone should be used every turn that it's feasible (aren't dead and still in range of things to kill). Then there's extra psychics, regen, reroll invul, RttS, morale, interupt etc. Basically, there's a few levels of CP: Insufficient Bare minimum Comfortable Still have useful uses What do I even do with all these? 8 with CC I think fits into the 3rd bracket, especially with adrenaline and SMA. But 4th is even better. As long as you aren't into double brigade+CP regen territory... (does the single reroll has to be the one of the rolls of the CC or can it be any roll from any unit) Anyone. I think the synergy with SMA is worth it for going 6 (especially with 5 already), but LoS is potentially an issue with that, true (I've only managed 1 game on the tabletop with them so far, but wouldn't have been able to hide fully with 3 or 6, so...). Yeah: that's a very strong strategy against some lists. But Alaitoc...well, you can't lock their vehicles, and you don't really have the damage to take them down. AL: infiltrate. 40 cultists or zerkers (double fight with a bunch of attacks base), can then move T1. Basically, either losing a bunch of stuff, or not being able to make headway T1. Also noise marines I'm pretty sure (double tap shooting), but not too familiar with them. I'd also be worried about Mortarion with the DG to be honest: 24 attacks, hitting on 2s rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s (with rerolls if WL). HG can take a decent chunk out of him though, so...would probably just depend on if you can keep them alive and in range for 2 turns of full SMA? Also poxwalkers for board control that increases in numbers from your gaunts... Eh...no good tournament list should have hard counters. List that it's weaker against? Sure. But an almost auto-lose list that is pretty meta? Not really. |
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Post by mrdodo on Dec 25, 2017 16:17:55 GMT
thanks for the info again. Well with the new codex coming out and another chapter aproved before May the meta will keep changing, but I'll try to see, when I'm up and running, if I can find opponents with those lists you mention to see how fast I go down. After the games I can see what really needs to change. (I just looked up the noise marines and bezerkers... that is some crazy stuff... sounds not a bit too strong at all... ) |
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) I dont think nids are made for tabling enemy, at least not my playstyle, I rather play them like a big game of chess. And with the above army I have a lot of pawns to play with.
