LVO and a list for the "meta" AKA what my list *needs*

[nidzy]

Hi All,

I have mentioned here in a few places that I am going to the LVO in January. I am really looking forward to the experience, but I have a lot to do before I go; including a lot of painting. First I need to figure out what my list will be.

I feel like Tyranids shoot as well as they ever had in this new book, they have a huge variety of deployment options and army-wide special rules as good as I have seen in playing them since our 4th edition codex (though I picked up 40k in 5th ed.) We aren't struggling for options.

I play against a very competitive group of players. I don't mean to say that they are WAAC, they are intelligent list writers who use math to find the best combinations in their books. There is a lot of math, tweaking to optimize and general discussion about what works and what doesnt. One is a DE player who I feel has crafted the best list that currently exists in that book, another plays sisters and admech, another tzeentch daemons and eldar along with his brother's deathguard and my bestie who is making the trip with me who is a lifelong dedicated deathguard player. This has left me some gaps that I likely won't be able to get games against in advance.

So, I decided to try to come up with a list of what my list needs before I set about writing it, testing it and painting whatever parts need painting when it is decided.

*Edit* the point of what I posted here is really to start a discussion about what a Tyranid army list needs to be competitive in an LVO type hyper competitive setting. I don't know if I got that through all the way in the OP so I added this edit, and a couple of notes below to clarify.

I think our book has ways to accomplish each item below, but I am still working on how to get them all together. Suggestions on how to put our options together to accomplish these goals, suggestions on additions to the list below of necessary functions of an army list in an LVO type setting, or other insights on playing in this type of tournament are very much appreciated.

What an LVO list needs:

1. Ways to kill massed infantry
2. ways to deny/circumvent deep strike
3. Ways to shut down brutal psychics
4. Ways to deal with primarch style models
5. ways to score consistently throughout the game in the current ITC ruleset
6. Built to deny other scoring full points on secondaries in ITC

[cypheon]

1) genestealers and devilgaunts
2) hormagaunts, gargoyles
3) biovores creating sporemines to throw off "closest unit" spells
4) biovores to skip all the bs special rules and go straight to MW
5) hormagaunts, gargoyles, rippers
6) swarm-style infantry that can be thrown away cheaply when needed

Basically gs to butcher infantry spam and most "hard" targets; biovores to mess with psychics, movement, and hilariously kill 9wound buff bots once the chaff is gone; swarm units with little to no upgrades to run to an objective to either claim, or deny. Rippers are beautiful as they can deep strike where needed

[jifel]

*wall of text incoming*

I've been playing index Nids for almost all of 8th (I took guard to a GT for giggles), so far going to RTTs, a different GT and a major. The inescapable fact that I have noticed so far is that Nids are not a pure melee army. They are not even primarily a melee army. I've had some good success in a few events this year with an army that is primarily a gunline with excellent horde and board control and a few melee elements as deterrents. I genuinely believe that is how Nids are supposed to function. The new Nid Codex expands on our already impressive array of deployment and mortal wound options. Right now, a half gunline half reserve army feels incredibly strong to me, I've only gotten 4 games in so far with the Codex (damn you final exams!) but haven't lost yet, all are against quality players who often travel to GTs with me. So, to address the 6 points you listed above:

1. Devilgants are our best answer. However, they aren't cheap so I feel they have to be reserved. Jormungandr with Raveners is how I've been running mine, no complaints so far. Genestealers are a good unit but I've personally chosen to drop them.
2. Large swarms of Gants help here. I run 3 Gant units total, one 30 in reserve and two other Jorm units that are as close to 19 models as points allow. Meiotic Spores are also surprisingly good here, thanks to their infiltrate. They are basically a sporefield Stratagem that gives you one unit instead of 2 and doesn't cost CPs.
3. Kronos Biovores are absolutely brutal. The only constant in my list that I can't ever possibly fathom removing is a Spearhead of 3 Biovores and a Neurothrope. Just way too good to take out.
4. Devilgants are actually really good anti Primarch, just try to shut down their -1 to hit. However, I also find that Hive Guard are very good anti tank/vehicle/monster. 9 Hive Guard and an Exocrine form an excellent gunline that can really bite through a primarch. Remember that the +1 Damage Strat can be popped any time in the shooting phase, I always like to wait until my opponent rolls his saves... used a Slimed up Exocrine and 30 Gants shooting twice to nuke Mortarion in one turn (after denying his defensive powers and then smiting him 3 times)
5. Rippers are an excellent unit to DS around and be annoying, and are good for holding recon/Objectives. I run mine as Behemoth. On multiple occasions I have used them to steal Objectives by charging the fringe of a unit with their reroll and then taking the objective forna turn with ObSec to give me the critical "hold more than your opponent". I also like mixed Flyrants to move up and contest enemy board control elements.
6. Not giving up secondaries is... problematic for us since we love big hordes and monsters so much. My list currently has 3 units of large troops, 3 monsters, no full point Kingslayer or Gang buster options and 5 total characters. I tried to make it so it would be hard to max out any one objective, there's a lot of 3 point options sadly. Real goal of my army is to just win secondary slightly by making them take 3 point max options while trying to get the full 4 off of Recon/linebreaker.

Just to give an idea, below is my current test list that will likely end up close to my LVO list.

SPOILER: Click to show

Jormungandr

Malanthrope 140
Neurothrope 70

14 Gants 56
15 Gants 60
30 DakkaGants 240

3x Hive Guard (impaler Cannons) 144
6x Hive Guard (Impaler Cannons) 288
Exocrine 216

Raveners (2x Scytals) 69
_____________________________________
Behemoth

Flyrant (2x Devourers, MRC, AG, TS) 193
Flyrant (2x Devourers, MRC, AG, TS) 193

3x3 Rippers 99
_____________________________________
Kronus

Neurothrope 70

Biovore 36
Biovore 36
Biovore 36

3 Meiotic Spores 54

2000

[luke1705]

Jifel,

I’m surprised that you don’t want the hive guard or exocrine to be in your Kronos Detachment.

The exocrine I get more in a way because that +1 armor is really big on him.

But the hive guard are going to try and be in cover much of the game, and 36” range usually means they have a pretty decent amount of target selection. Seems like they would be better suited re-rolling 1’s

[luke1705]

Oh and also for your mixed flyrants, I’m surprised they’re not Kraken. Gives perfect flexibility to shoot and assault whenever and however you want.

[jifel]

Luke, I've definitely thought of making them Kronos, and still might do that. However, the reason I haven't is purely for the Malanthrope. On a board where I don't have LoS blocking terrain to hide them in, I don't want an obvious target lacking -1 to shoot at. I agree that the cover bonus will be mostly useless. They were going to be Kronos pre CA, I was planning on two malanthropes (just ordered the second ) one of Jorm and one Kronos but decided against with the +50 points. Also, Jorm allows me to bring the Hive Guard in with the ravaners if I'm facing a particularly brutal alpha strike, as I can get all 30 Gants and the Hive Guard in range of a well spread out Ravener unit. Just onslaught them to counteract Heavy weapons and it's golden.

Kraken vs Behemoth is another very difficult choice. I am leaning Behemoth purely because the rerolls are so nice, if I DS and fail the charge then Kraken isn't gonna be helping. 8" isn't exactly easy. But, Kraken is also an excellent choice and something I will very likely be trying out at some point before LVO.

[lordhikaru]

What I am toying with at the moment :

Kraken Battalion
3x Flyrant AG TS MRC Dev

3x15 Genestealers

1x Lictor

Kronos Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope

3x3 Rippers

5 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard

Biovore
Biovore

Null deploy or hide Kraken unless I need to stop their turn 1 ds assault.

Kronos all hide. Kraken is meant to score forward objectives and tie them up/chew.

Disengaging to let Kronos firebase open fire, and re-engaging.

[nidzy]

Dec 3, 2017 18:07:00 GMT lordhikaru said:

What I am toying with at the moment :

Kraken Battalion
3x Flyrant AG TS MRC Dev

3x15 Genestealers

1x Lictor

Kronos Battalion
Neurothrope
Neurothrope

3x3 Rippers

5 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard
3 Hive Guard

Biovore
Biovore

Null deploy or hide Kraken unless I need to stop their turn 1 ds assault.

Kronos all hide. Kraken is meant to score forward objectives and tie them up/chew.

Disengaging to let Kronos firebase open fire, and re-engaging.

My list is similar to this except I am considering 2-3 kronos exocrines instead of the hive guard.

[drice070]

I tend to avoid worrying about invuls and go straight with MWs.

3 Flyrants with BL Devs.
15 Genestealers
3 Rippers
14 Termagants
Mawloc
Mawloc

Sporecyst
Sporecyst

Neruothrope
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores

[nidzy]

Dec 4, 2017 21:07:32 GMT drice070 said:

I tend to avoid worrying about invuls and go straight with MWs.

3 Flyrants with BL Devs.
15 Genestealers
3 Rippers
14 Termagants
Mawloc
Mawloc

Sporecyst
Sporecyst

Neruothrope
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores
3 Biovores

Yeah, but have you tried to buy a biovore recently?

[jifel]

And also, do you have a plan for horde armies that arent going to care about mortal wounds? Orks would be a big problem for that list I feel.

[luke1705]

Dec 5, 2017 18:32:27 GMT jifel said:

And also, do you have a plan for horde armies that arent going to care about mortal wounds? Orks would be a big problem for that list I feel.

Not something he’s likely to run into. Ironically, a Tyranids mirror matchup would be his worst nightmare

[kazetanade]

Dec 5, 2017 18:32:27 GMT jifel said:

And also, do you have a plan for horde armies that arent going to care about mortal wounds? Orks would be a big problem for that list I feel.

74 Devourer shots says Hi. Orks would be a negligible blip on the map.

The real problem for that list would be Tanks/MC spam.

[bigpig]

Hey Nidzy! I'll be there too running nids. Currently #1 nid so hoping to bump my Major score to secure it. Going to bring my stock Kraken Kronos list, Stealers in trygon tunnel, mass hormagaunts, and Swarmy slingshot. though I'm considering setting some points aside for sporefield strat. The ability to CB forward operative will be huge I think

[luke1705]

Dec 5, 2017 22:11:35 GMT bigpig said:

Hey Nidzy! I'll be there too running nids. Currently #1 nid so hoping to bump my Major score to secure it. Going to bring my stock Kraken Kronos list, Stealers in trygon tunnel, mass hormagaunts, and Swarmy slingshot. though I'm considering setting some points aside for sporefield strat. The ability to CB forward operative will be huge I think

Still think the Trygon is worth it?  I just feel like I see it die to a handful of lascannons every game without an invuln.  I mean...I guess it's that or the highway for stealers.  But I think I'd just rather take an entire second squad of stealers for those points.