First game of 8th - Nids+Cult, 1500 pts vs IG

[No One]

OK, had a 1500 pts game against IG. Running nids+GSC.

My list:
Battalion (Nids):
HQ:
Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191
Flyrant (2xDeathspitter, MRC, Pincer) 191
Troops:
Terms (10) 40
Terms (10) 40
Terms (10) 40
Warriors (3, one with VC) 77
Fast:
Gargs (10) 60
Gargs (10) 60



GSC Battalion:
HQ:
Patty 150
Primus 76
Troops:
Acolytes (13) 143
Acolytes (13) 143
Acolytes (13) 143
Acolytes (13) 143

His list:
HQ
90 Straken
40 Primaris Psyker (Smite, Psykic Barrier)
31 Company Commander
ELITE
96 Veterans Autocannon 3 Plasma
16 Astropath Astromech (downgraded to laspistol), Gaze
50 Harker Payback
31 Commissar Bolter 1
TROOP
62 Miitarum Tempestus Scions 2 Plasma 14
62 Miitarum Tempestus Scions 2 Plasma 14
90 30x Conscripts
90 30x Conscripts
FAST
76 6 Rough Riders 64 Hunting Lances 12
76 6 Rough Riders 64 Hunting Lances 12
HEAVY
178 Leman Russ 132 Punisher 20 3 HB 24 SB 2
133 Manticore HB
133 Manticore HB
93 Wyvern HB
27 Heavy Weapons Mortars
93 Wyvern HB


Mission: EW, 4 objectives. The shenanigans started straight away – since the one who places the last objective chooses deployment style (and side), I used a CP to reroll my win into a loss. And then he did the same , leaving us on a 2 vs 2, rerolling into my victory again. Both wasted a CP for nothing changed.
I stuffed up objective deployments, placing them as I would cult (i.e. in a corner, away from everything to CA onto - but without RTTS, less units, no min squads to jump on etc...bad idea).
He picked Hammer and Anvil (which is what I'd have picked anyway).

TL;DR – a much nicer looking bat rep (with pics of my lovely models /s ) is here.

Deployment: Gaunts up against board edge (with one on a back objective), middle, warriors a bit far back in cover.
Gargs deploy left flank.
Flyrants deploy on the same flank as his tanks (my left), but in hindsight a bit far back – put them on a terrain feature...which didn't matter, because not infantry .

He deployed his tanks back left corner, conscripts in a nice chain to block off his entire DZ from cult, and screen everything.

T1:
Move up, advance gaunts into cover. CA everything (in hindsight, this is one of my errors).
Rolled Patty+unit first – 6! Bottom left to charge and wipe conscript squad. Primus next – 1, reroll, 6! Joins patty's unit, a bit further towards center. Characters in the middle (though I stuffed up patty, leaving him further back – i.e. out of range if I charged ). Next one was...also a 6? Deployed centre/right, to threaten characters/other conscript squad. Last one (or 3rd) was a 4 – right flank.

The 4/all should have gone down and threatened the left flank I think? Either that, or I should've taken advantage of 8ths reserve mechanics – patty+squad rolled a 6, stop there. Use them to eat conscripts, next turn come on with other 3 (2 with rerolls).

Psychic – cat on non WL flyrant (WL had survivor). Hypnosis and horror both onto punisher, both denied. Smite off a wound on the russ.
Shooting – killed a bunch of conscripts and a rough rider or 2.

Charge – new combat rules are messy, but a lot of shenanigans you can do with them. 2 squads on left were pretty standard. Top/middle – targeted left conscript, Characters and riders. Only made the charge on conscripts – but could then pile in onto the other targets (to an extent).
Activated them first, mulched most of the conscripts – then went with the centre unit, who piled in on the rough riders – I didn't declare as a target (which I should've), so I couldn't attack them, while they could attack me. But, denied them the charge, and left myself in combat still, unless they wanted to leave and do nothing. Similarly, consolidated into them with the other squad.


His T1: Can be summarised – most stuff left, shot everything to pieces. Lost all but a handful of acos left flank (including characters) and the squad on the right flank.
WL down to 2 wounds (forgot to roll my 5++, was rolling a 6+ armour. Don't think it made any difference. He...might have been rerolling 1s to wound when he shouldn't have been? There was a lot of reroll 1s in the backfield with Harker, orders and Wyvern, so it was a tad hard to keep track ), other flyrant untargeted.


OK, now summary turns (interesting stuff over . Also less happening. For slightly more detail, see the link earlier):
My T2: Flyrant charged russ, down to 4 wounds after smite. Gargs charge in, tie down basically everything (2 units of riders, characters, conscripts), leaving other unit of acos to charge in. They just killed each other over the rest of the game, essentially.

His T2: Kills of WL flyrant, starts mulching the gaunts. Kills last acos on left flank, kills some gargs.

My T3: Last flyrant charges manticore, horrors the other – almost kill it (down to 2 wounds) after a CP reroll on hit and 2 6s to wound. Acos finish off conscripts at this point I think.

His T3: Manticore+vets (just) kill flyrant. Scions come on and kill warriors. Call it here.
(Yes, I did just basically give up on writing things out ).



Anyway, thoughts:
Cult doesn't like bubble wrap/screens. I think they'll probably need some way to deal with that. Either as mentioned (send one in with a 5/6 and deal with it, rest later) or maybe something like devilgants. Though that brings its own issues with reserve limits...

Yep, 50% reserve definitely a kicker. I had 200 pts of nids (terms+warriors) sitting around useless, just filling unit requirements. Want to change that – in the theoretical, biovores seem a good alternative. Can still sit on a backfield objective, and just litter the board with spore mines (because target the closest? Eh, probably pass on mortal wounding conscripts ). While being cheaper than terms.
Other alternative – mucos are the cheapest, but also do nothing. Gargs were great – unfortunately I've only got the 20, and aren't quite as cheap as the terms. Likely well worth it though, when they contribute.

GSC characters were...very lackluster. Partly just due to dying . But yeah, would've preferred more units – might consider an iconward as a cheap HQ choice so that I can keep the CP, depending on what I do with nids. Because that's all that the characters did – CP (+4 including the Pimus' reroll, which I would've used a CP for otherwise). Considering they also took up 'slots' for CA (which were an additional '40 pts' wasted on terms)...

Speaking of CP – meh. Reroll for CA would be great, but didn't need – used it for a reroll of a cat perils, so got that off and didn't suffer D3 mortal wounds. An out of sequence combat activation – nothing important though. I ended up with...3 still I think? And last turn I wasted a couple last turn because I knew I wouldn't be using them otherwise. So, useful – but not worth too much effort to acquire is my initial thoughts (though that could definitely change.)

The fast engagement of the flyrants was great, as was cc output. Shooting, a bit less so – but that was partly poor target priority on my part. For ~200 pts, and they were still...reasonably survivable? Cult need that fast pressure I think – gargs, flyrants, maybe shrikes. Genestealers? Not sure how fast they'd be without SL – definitely with SL, though he's expensive and not fast fast.

Combat phase was an interesting mess – target everything that could possibly end up within 3" (bar very good overwatch), because you might be able to pile in and snag them. Especially the case with characters, otherwise they can Heroic intervention in and be untargetable. Pile in+consolidate gives you a lot of tools for pulling things into combat – if you can pull in things that don't want to leave...

Ramble over I think.

[almostmercury]

Great report!

"Acolytes are great value for the points, and their deployment rules will make them excellent vs backfield units. Most Elite armies will be able to fend them off better than this battle report demonstrated, but then most elite armies won’t be able to clog up their deployment options nearly as well."

-Matt

I had my suspicions.

[nalathani]

Thanks for the report! There are two ways to figure out how different units and armies perform: Math and Battle Reports. I can do math myself but I can only play just so many games of 40k in a month.

I agree with you 100% on the objective placement issues. In the one 8e GSC game I've played I put my objectives far-flung because that's how I'm used to doing it when we could return to shadows and pop up anywhere. That...doesn't really work anymore. Having to deploy 50% hurts too, I was playing full GSC and most of my stuff was sub-optimal because it had to walk around from T1. I really do think allying in Nids or AM to have long range shooting units that deploy normally, and then Ambush all of your GSC stuff will be a good compromise.

My characters were fairly lackluster as well except for the Primus, whose re-roll plus aura was awesome. I think I'm gonna drop my magus.

As far as the bubble-wrapping goes, I think shooting is going to be just as important as assault. All-assault armies are going to run into problems with only being able to charge cultists, kroot, conscripts, termagants, etc. If you can blast that chaff in the shooting phase you can hit what you really want in the assault phase. I think balanced list building is going to win games in 8e.

[kazetanade]

Jun 14, 2017 18:24:47 GMT almostmercury said:

Great report!

"Acolytes are great value for the points, and their deployment rules will make them excellent vs backfield units. Most Elite armies will be able to fend them off better than this battle report demonstrated, but then most elite armies won’t be able to clog up their deployment options nearly as well."

-Matt

I had my suspicions.

Kinda lost track what you're trying to say here.

[almostmercury]

Jun 15, 2017 10:49:49 GMT kazetanade said:

Jun 14, 2017 18:24:47 GMT almostmercury said:

Great report!

"Acolytes are great value for the points, and their deployment rules will make them excellent vs backfield units. Most Elite armies will be able to fend them off better than this battle report demonstrated, but then most elite armies won’t be able to clog up their deployment options nearly as well."

-Matt

I had my suspicions.

Kinda lost track what you're trying to say here.

It's too highlight that I agree that Acolytes bring a lot. Maybe players have adjusted to the points shock? But there was a whole lot of rabble rabble rabble when the pdfs were leaked.

[No One]

almostmercury said:

It's too highlight that I agree that Acolytes bring a lot. Maybe players have adjusted to the points shock? But there was a whole lot of rabble rabble rabble when the pdfs were leaked.

Most of that was us i.e. people who play Cult, and could see what they've lost (which is undeniably something). Matt didn't even play 7th, so he's coming at this with a completely new slate, as it were.

nalathani said:

Having to deploy 50% hurts too, I was playing full GSC and most of my stuff was sub-optimal because it had to walk around from T1. I really do think allying in Nids or AM to have long range shooting units that deploy normally, and then Ambush all of your GSC stuff will be a good compromise.

Yeah, never bring footslogging cult cc. You pay a pretty premium for CA, which is really good. Don't even bother if you're not using it. My 'pure cult' will involve lots of mucos/nid chaff for the CA units . Scout sentinels might be quite good for this as well, actually - had been considering biovores, but they do the same thing, but can actually choose what they shoot . Or as you say, more of a mixed approach. Treat the acolytes as more of a supplementary force, rather than a force unto themselves. But it's annoying that they've sort of been relegated to that level...

My characters were fairly lackluster as well except for the Primus, whose re-roll plus aura was awesome. I think I'm gonna drop my magus.

Honestly, I can see myself bringing a Magus a bit - purely because he can do something when deployed normally, thus doesn't take up a CA 'slot' (which can get pretty expensive unless you've got 6+ mucos ). When you need HQs...considering taking him as a nid HQ, because he's actually the cheapest option there . Iconward's cheaper, but also useless without CA. 18" range on Might, well...Also should hopefully mean he's outside of range of denies, which are obnoxious - the astropath is 16 pts, and denies just as well as everyone else (on 1 power, anyway). 56 pts of his could deny 3 of my powers every turn - when I'm that close, 18" range is plenty.

I think Primus+Magus will be my 'default' characters.

[kazetanade]

Jun 15, 2017 12:51:07 GMT almostmercury said:

Jun 15, 2017 10:49:49 GMT kazetanade said:

Kinda lost track what you're trying to say here.

It's too highlight that I agree that Acolytes bring a lot. Maybe players have adjusted to the points shock? But there was a whole lot of rabble rabble rabble when the pdfs were leaked.

Acolytes bring the same deal as before, just less effective than in 7th. Just because it works doesnt mean its not been nerfed harder than it should have been.

I've been through them really in detail, and the point cost increase hurts bigger units more than our MSU/10MEN approaches and bringing special weapons basically brings you equal/cheaper. If it wasn't for the reserves Gate, i would still advocate MSU style of play with democharges and single cutters/drills.

The rabble rabble is real, but we played Nids. It isnt something we can't handle as long as they still do work, which they do.

By the way, matts analysis is off. GSC is most trecherously lethal towards an elite army, especially now that elites deal low number of attacks with high damage. Hardly any other army can pin in an elite army as severely as We can. You also dont care about 3++ when you throw 60 attacks that hit on a 2+ or 3+ at him, that hasnt changed in the slightest.

We melt most readily to a barrage of 5+ 4shot conscripts. You should be engaging high number of shots or high number of attack armies with the utmost caution.

[almostmercury]

Jun 15, 2017 13:48:49 GMT kazetanade said:

Acolytes bring the same deal as before, just less effective than in 7th. Just because it works doesnt mean its not been nerfed harder than it should have been.

This part is really important: the game has been completely rebalanced. A nerf happens when an aspect changes (unit stats), but the overall context (the game) stays the same. Because 8th is a completely different

Yes, if you played these rules in 7th it would undeniably be a nerf. Calling it a nerf at this point, is a misnomer. Things are different and some abilities were lost. But we're starting from the ground up now. It's not that they've been nerfed, it's that there isn't a lot of auto take anymore. That is what we want in a healthy game.

I've been through them really in detail, and the point cost increase hurts bigger units more than our MSU/10MEN approaches and bringing special weapons basically brings you equal/cheaper. If it wasn't for the reserves Gate, i would still advocate MSU style of play with democharges and single cutters/drills.

The rabble rabble is real, but we played Nids. It isnt something we can't handle as long as they still do work, which they do.

Sure. But, They do work > rabble rabble. At this point, I'm undecided about model counts in units. You don't need to bring as many other units to get as many acolytes into reserve when the numbers are bigger. That's a trade I'm not sure about yet.

By the way, matts analysis is off. GSC is most trecherously lethal towards an elite army, especially now that elites deal low number of attacks with high damage. Hardly any other army can pin in an elite army as severely as We can. You also dont care about 3++ when you throw 60 attacks that hit on a 2+ or 3+ at him, that hasnt changed in the slightest.

We melt most readily to a barrage of 5+ 4shot conscripts. You should be engaging high number of shots or high number of attack armies with the utmost caution.

Agreed. But being wrong about the value against elites doesn't mean he's wrong about what Acolytes bring overall and whether they're worth it.. We're not looking for "HOLY (please do not swear) THE MODEL DOES WHAT!?! I NEED TO BRING THAT!" anymore. The differences are sublte and choices require more careful consideration to purpose and composition.

We do melt to conscript shooting, but remember that he found they brought something to the table EVEN THOUGH he had the tools to melt them. He won handedly in the end. (No offence, No One).

[kazetanade]

almostmercury I had a long reply written up but in the end decided not to push it through - argument for the sake of being right is pointless and tiring. I actually do not agree with any of your points but none of that really helps us play the army better, so I'm really only looking for new suggestions and new ideas on how to maximize the army's strength, rather than go on a tirade on how they have been over-nerfed even compared to other armies rebalancing or whatever.

When you get a few games in please do share and post so that we can all assimilate and benefit from the beauty that is the Hive Mind.

[No One]

OK, just wanted to quickly type this up - something I realised thinking about the bubble wrap was that, if I'd targeted the rough riders, I'd likely have killed them and then consolidated onto the punisher. Which...possibly could've won me the game, actually. Probably not, but still - would've helped.

But, lets go one step further - the units that can fight are those that charged, and those that are within 1". So, you can activate a unit that charged to fight - even if there are no models within 1" of it. It would then get to pile in towards the closest - if that unit was within 12", it could've been declared as a target for the charge, letting you kill it, even though you didn't make it to within 1" on the initial charge. But even if there's nothing within 1" - you'd then go on to the end of the Fight sequence and consolidate another 3" to the closest enemy model. So, with 2 units, you could tie down anything within ~5" of a bubble wrap.

[almostmercury]

Are you sure that the charging models don't also need to be within 1"

I feel like that's a pretty intended condition...

[almostmercury]

Maybe if the first unit wiped the enemy unit and the second one was left open but still charged? I don't know man... seems gamey... and I'm happy to game a system.

[No One]

almostmercury said:

Are you sure that the charging models don't also need to be within 1"

I feel like that's a pretty intended condition...

Yep.
Step 1: Choose a unit to Fight.

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase

Maybe if the first unit wiped the enemy unit and the second one was left open but still charged?

That's the idea. But even if they didn't wipe the unit - if the closest enemy model is one from a different unit...this happened on both of my initial charges. (Just some of them were into conscripts that I hadn't targeted because of overwatch, so...managed to end up closer to those, and within 1" of the other unit for most of that squad though. It's...really finicky, but a lot of shenanigans you can pull I think).

[almostmercury]

I think the charge needs to be successful, which would put the unit within 1". If you're saying you can fail a charge and still consolidate, I'm going to /facepalm.

[No One]

almostmercury said:

I think the charge needs to be successful, which would put the unit within 1". If you're saying you can fail a charge and still consolidate, I'm going to /facepalm.

Yeah, that's not what I'm saying. You got it right, and then I said 'that's the idea' - charge in with A and B. A kills the unit, B piles in+consolidates onto the next target.

For a unit to have charged...yeah, I'd say they couldn't have failed that .