1850 Khorne Daemonkin / CSM - Abaddon Delivery

[Agnos]

All comments or critiques are welcome & appreciated. Please see the end of my post for a short explanation of the list’s mechanics.

A quick blurb:

The goal of this list is to deliver Abaddon the Despoiler reliably, in order to overpower enemy armies, in a 3-game RTT setting, under ITC rules.

It’s function is, hopefully, to take the center of the board, and offer several options for moving onto objectives throughout and at the end of the game.

Thanks for any advice you have!

1850 Chaos Space Marine / Khorne Daemonkin

-----{Combined Arms Detachment: Crimson Slaughter}

Abaddon the Despoiler

Chaos Sorcerer, Mastery 3, Jump Pack

10x Cultists

10x Cultists

Chaos Fire Raptor, Reaper Autocannons, Armoured Ceramite, Dirge Caster

- Legacies of Ruin: 1st War of Armageddon; 4th Quadrant Rebellion

-----{Combined Arms Detachment: Crimson Slaughter}

Chaos Lord, Jump Pack, Daemonheart Armour, Sigil of Corruption, Power Fist, Lightning Claw

Chaos Sorcerer, Mastery 3, Jump Pack

10x Cultists

10x Cultists

-----{Charnel Cohort Formation: Khorne Daemonkin}

Herald, Juggernaut, Exalted Locus of Wrath, Brazen Rune

3x Bloodcrushers, Instrument

16x Bloodletters

8x Bloodletters

10x Flesh Hounds

1850.

The way it works:

Flesh Hounds provide a fast skirmishing unit, deployed on turn 1, and are supported by cultists and the Bike Lord (and potentially psychic support) against alpha-strike armies.

Abaddon, at least in a 3-game tournament, is likely to be on the board turn 2 in each game. Here’s how:

Deep striking in with the Cohort Herald allows a reroll for reserve rolls. Abaddon, the Herald, and the Bloodcrushers deepstrike in, using their instrument to bring in the large squad of Bloodletters (who can be placed within 6” of the first unit and will not scatter). During that same movement phase, Abaddon and the Herald can, if they choose, end their phase within 2” of the large bloodletter unit, thus joining them for protection.

Ideally, the sorcerers and Lord can also join either of these units, creating a large, mobile death star (or can stay separate, allowing up to three threat units, plus the Flesh Hounds), that are able to threaten any part of the board by turn 3, and deal with a variety of threats.

Any c&c is welcome and appreciated!

Note: It’s embarrassing to say that this list is not exactly true to the fluff. However, it’s a fun playstyle, is very simplistic in its goals, and utilizes many “overcosted” units in critical roles, providing flavor and mystery to the list as a whole. Ultimately, my goal was to recreate a “super-friends” deathstar for Chaos forces and, although it is not nearly as efficient, I believe I’ve succeeded in building a close combat death star with similar function, and perhaps a better chance of winning a pitched battle, with the Warmaster included. Please don’t judge me too strongly =)

[Kark]

I don't know if I understood it correctly, but if abaddon unit and bloodletters deepstrike in the same turn, they cannot benefit from instrument of chaos and the roll for scatter will apply.

Overall I don't think that putting so much pts in ICs and taking 40 cultists as a tax is a good idea. Personally I wouldn't bother with abaddon at all. 2x winged deamon prince of nurgle can provide You both psychic and CC support. You can take them from daemons codex for additional rewards and much better troops like nurglings or pink horrors. As for KDK I would aim for CAD and/or gorepack to spam flesh hounds or vehicles like heldrakes and/or soul grinders.

[Agnos]

Thank you for your reply =)

I think you have a point about the Nurgle princes. I'm not sure that Abaddon is really required for this list, though I believe he could come in joined to the Herald's unit at the start of the game and benefit from the Lord of the Blood Host rule. He (and his unit) would still scatter normally, but would be able to choose to re-roll their Reserve rolls. After the Deep Strike is completed (including bringing in another unit with an instrument), both HQs would be free to choose which unit within 2" they are joining at the end of the movement phase.

I've seen lots of lists advocating for Flesh Hounds in large quantities. However, I'm a little confused as to why this is. I realize they're efficient for their points costs in terms of number of wounds and Inv saves, but I have trouble understanding how they win a game on their own.

Do you have any advice on building a Khorne detachment that utilizes this efficiency but is still able to combat things like Knights, Wraith lists, and thunderwolf cavalry death stars?

[Kark]

I don't think that khorne is the best option for fighting knights, wraiths and thunderwolves, khorne can take SM companies quite well.

Knights die from either screamers (S5AP2 armourbane attacks) or nurgle deamons like plague bearers or plague drones (they can be summoned) that always cause glanicng hits on 6s for armour penetration (it's called touch of rust or something like this).

Nurgle deamon princes are overall very effective as they have shrouded (2+ cover save when jinking). With ML3 they can generate powers from telepathy, possible invisibility that really helps in CC against all nastisness like IKs, WKs, wraiths, wolfstars, bike stars etc or biomancy that can boost their stats to T8, 4+ fnp, higher initiative, more attacks and so on. When rolling for greater rewards You can always take balesword that has 4+ poisoned and instant death. That really helps against wraiths or thunderwolves. You might also get armourbane and fleshbane from greater rewards and this is very effective against IKs, WKs and other CC units. Fleshbane wounds everything on 2+ and poisoned let You reroll that 1s. They can also generate from demonology and be able to summon some stuff. So daemons detachment composed of 2x nurgle DP and 2x nurglings that can deepstrike with obsec is very helpful.

Of course screamerstar is still an option and it can be taken as allied detachment. Divination powers like 4++ can be handy. Also misfortune + slashing attacks from screamers can be devastating. Slashing attacks can hit invisible units, warp spiders without their jumps, FMCs etc. Now every screamer deals d3 hits, so such attacks can hurt wraiths and thunderwolves.

Demonettes of slaanesh or seekers (it's better to summon them) have hgh initiative and nice amount of rending attacks that can also reroll to hit for prescience. They are also fast, so they claim objectives quite easily.

Belakor may be taken as part of deamons or CSM detachment to provide all telepathy powers. Shrouded is very useful (2+ cover for belakor himself) and 2+ cover with rerolls of 1s for all nearby screamers. Invisibility can be casted on some CC squad like nugrle prince or big squad of flesh hounds with herld on jaggernought.

As for khorne, flesh hounds are good because they move fast ignoring terrain (beasts), can do mealstroms, they are not that easy to gun down (2 wounds per model and 5++), can tarpit (they don't roll for instability in KDK). If You have lots of multiple small units (fleshhounds, bloodletters) they can be used as bloodthide pts generator and with spending bloodthide pts You can summon new units. Soul grinders are also nice with S10AP2 attacks, however gravs can immobilize them. S10 is overall good against wraiths and thunderwolves.

So I would definitely use deamons detachment in order to back up khorne. Probably screamerstar is the best idea (4 heralds of tzeentch on discs with ml3, pink horrors or nurglings as troops and 9 screamers). In this case we get 2++/2++ unit that supports psychic phase with divination and or summoning (here we can summon demonettes for objectives, plague bearers for anti AV, additional screamers etc), 9d3 slashing attacks with possible rending and S5 armourbane attacks. So we have arguments against IKs, eldars, necrons, space wolves and more.

From khorne I would look at flesh hounds, soul grinders, heldrakes, maybe maulerfiends. HQ - herald of khorne, troops either bloodletters (deepstrike on objectives) or cultists (they are cheap).

[Agnos]

Understood. I'll report back with my findings.

Any further thoughts are still appreciated!

[Kark]

What models to You have? Also what armies? Can You use come the apocalypse allies?

[gigasnail]

If you're wanting to take CC foot characters (i.e. they only move 6") you need to get them a ride. DS them in is a bad idea, without any way to get them in and assaulting quickly. Look at the FW land raiders and varients. A sorcerer or two rolling telepathy, abbadon, and a unit of bloodletters for ablative wounds in one of the larger land raiders will help get you where you need to go.

The better alternative is not to use foot characters, but to take lords and sorcerers on bikes or juggernaughts and attach them to spawn or flesh hounds.

[Agnos]

I have access to most of the models available in the CSM, Daemon, and KDK codices, as well as limited access to Forge World units from IA13, including renegades. If it makes the list work, I'm willing to proxy, as well as to ultimately purchase, anything necessary, though I'll be slow to report back, as I'd prefer to play with painted models / suitable proxies if necessary.

However, as I'm looking to play in the ITC format, I am not willing to play CTA allies (as much as I'd like to use my renegade models as Astra Militarum allies, and an assassin!).

I've considered looking into av14 transports, although I fear they'd be vulnerable to alpha-strike armies. Then again, there's nothing keeping me from utilizing Deep Strike against those enemies and a transport in other games, as long as I keep the retinues to daemonic units, and points costs balanced throughout.

I'm not sure I agree as far as escorting with spawn or flesh hounds, however. I fear that an inability to deal with AV 12-13 is a serious handicap for most of those fast units, and thus characters need to be armed appropriately. In cases where the general troops don't have high strength or low ap attacks (or shooting), I'm afraid of being bogged down by MSU marines or horde xenos lists, where my relatively low # of attacks at high str might be a handicap.

Then again, I'm willing to look into all possible options.

How would you feel seeing a similar list, but dropping the large squad of bloodletters, the flesh hounds, and abaddon - instead running 2x maulerfiends and a khorne chaos knight?

[gigasnail]

well, yes the characters are armed to deal with heavy armor, and anything else they run into. that's the point.

i love maulerfiends, but they have problems being AV12. i've only ever had them make combat once, due to grav immobilization or being flat out destroyed.