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Post by WestRider on Sept 5, 2015 4:41:30 GMT
Just watch out for Servo-Skulls. Those things will put a serious crimp in your Infiltration game.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 5, 2015 4:54:18 GMT
No need to pod in infiltraters. I am suprised how few models are in 7th ed army lists. Lots of space in deployment zones. lol, have you seen a battle company yet? that's a lot of dudes. podding them gives you deployment flexibility, to respond to other podded units, like podded centurions. nid pods in general are great for this, because they aren't dedicated transports, you can put whatever you want in them. infiltrating them is pretty telegraphed, and as they rely on cover, they can be burned out by podded flame units, double tapped out by TAC squads with tactical doctrine, w/e. for instance, i see infiltrated stealers, i know where to drop the double spray tfex or tervigon.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 5, 2015 4:55:12 GMT
Just watch out for Servo-Skulls. Those things will put a serious crimp in your Infiltration game. and an inquistor + skulls is a pretty common add-in to imperial forces, to stop scouts/infiltrators like stealers, khorne fleshhounds, white scars bikers, etc.
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Post by gloomfang on Sept 5, 2015 5:20:40 GMT
We'll see how it goes. Not like I have to buy anything and I have been meaning to convert those extra warriors into lictors for the last year. And yes I know that a lot of things will kill the stealers in the way in. Generally I assume one turn of shooting and then one set of overwatch on the charge. That list gambles a little bit on having more then twice the units of the opponent and just having more units then they can can even target, let alone shoot down. Then the next assault phase you send in the weakest units first to take the overwatch and then take the rest of the bugs in.
As much as we say stealers are expensive pt wise, they really aren't. You can fit a ton of MSU stealers in if you use the right detachments and formations. The draft I have right now has 2 Manufact stealers and the CoC formation and I'm still well under 1K pts. That is 11 units of stealers right there alone. If any of the small ones get wiped out I'm only down 70pts. Yes I might bleed VPs of some missions, but at least it will be fun.
Going to see if I can get 20 broods into a 2K list and still try to keep it marginally competitive.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 5, 2015 5:28:32 GMT
lol i say again, have you seen a battle company on the table yet?
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Post by gloomfang on Sept 5, 2015 5:50:28 GMT
lol i say again, have you seen a battle company on the table yet? Not on the table in 7th. My other army includes the entire Dark Angel 's 3rd company though. Debating playing that instead again , but big batches aren't painted.
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Post by reitifoh on Sept 5, 2015 10:33:14 GMT
We'll see how it goes. Not like I have to buy anything and I have been meaning to convert those extra warriors into lictors for the last year. And yes I know that a lot of things will kill the stealers in the way in. Generally I assume one turn of shooting and then one set of overwatch on the charge. That list gambles a little bit on having more then twice the units of the opponent and just having more units then they can can even target, let alone shoot down. Then the next assault phase you send in the weakest units first to take the overwatch and then take the rest of the bugs in. As much as we say stealers are expensive pt wise, they really aren't. You can fit a ton of MSU stealers in if you use the right detachments and formations. The draft I have right now has 2 Manufact stealers and the CoC formation and I'm still well under 1K pts. That is 11 units of stealers right there alone. If any of the small ones get wiped out I'm only down 70pts. Yes I might bleed VPs of some missions, but at least it will be fun. Going to see if I can get 20 broods into a 2K list and still try to keep it marginally competitive. that's why I started this thread, I myself plan to use 20- 25 genestealers in my new '3rd turn do or die' 2k list all the genestealers will infiltrate with DL assassins get as close as they can first turn (doesn't matter if they get charged) then use the Lictors/ DL special rule to call in "2" Mawlocs without scattering TFTD , with swarmlord (for -1 reserve roll, and back field threat) 1-2 flyrants (deployed gliding) and a tervigon (produce objective grabbing gants, should the game continue), thinking or re- running the numbers so that I can have some gargoyles DS too, as well as 1 or 2 mucolid spores to thin out the ranks. the whole idea is the genestealers soak up most of the fire power early on, while the lictors get in position to use their pheromone trail ability, any genestealers that survive can go for heavy armour while the mawlocs arrive to devastate the troops with the mawlocs now on the field/ ongoing reserves the flyrants switch to fly mode and swoop in to mop up with devourers, with the swarmlord and tervigon running up the field grabbibg objectives as they close the gap. but obviously the genestealers are the big deal here as they will either be tanking the hits for the lictors, or taking down vehicles while the lictors tank, so may consider investing in a broodlord for the fearless synapse (keep a few of the genestealers and lictors under control) I feel this build will not only be capable of tabling people, it could also (hopefully) keep them weak while the gants grab objectives, yes its low on synapse but people forget that once the swarmlord reaches mid field (turn 1/2 with a good run) he can increase his 36" bubble (18" with Litchpin) to a whopping 48" with primus power, this can generally cover many boards you'll be playing on, and as they should be too busy with all the units in their deployment zone, he can walk up and destroy everything in CC. only weakness I can see in this build would be a VERY lucky first turn shooting by your opponent, or something similar to hammerfall (in which case you would spread out all your army to force them to deploy where you want). either way, soon as my genestealers have bases (finished the 20 with a small ebay lot) and I get the last 2 lictors, I will be trying this build
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Post by krakentendrilswarm on Sept 5, 2015 11:01:37 GMT
We ran a highlander campaign with minimal changes to lists available (once every 5 games you could swap out 500 points of your 1500 point list). I went for a swarm overload list (30 Termagants, 30 Gargoyles, 30 Hormagaunts, Tervigon, 20 Genestealers + Broodlord) style of list. I ended up doing about 15 games or so with the same basic list before the campaign stalled and we decided to do other things.
The Genestealers were a very interesting unit on balance. In games where they Infiltrated, they often ended up "doing nothing" except absorbing firepower for a turn or two. This in itself isn't an awful thing, but it feels like a waste. In a lot of the games we played I ran the Genestealers behind the swarm with a Malanthrope for 3+ cover. In these games, the Genestealers often didn't start to do anything until turn 3-4, but when they did they became an absolute blender unit. If you can get them to your enemy in large numbers, and ideally your enemy is currently bogged down with 'gaunts then they will quickly start to rack up the kills. Multi-charging is your friend, keeping them out of harms way from enemy guns.
Running huge broods is a double edged sword though. Sometimes the crazy mixture of units crawling all over the board in a massive confusing multi-unit melee prevented me from bringing enough Genestealers to bear against choice enemy units (too many 'gaunts hugging their bases), but that also often worked for me by denying the opponent room to counter-charge me. Plus, the whole thing felt very "Tyranid", and was hugely satisfying.
There were of course games where this sort of list will fail completely. Hyper-mobile opponents will end Genestealers with shooting; Eldar in particular are a nightmare (but then, when aren't they?), but over-all I am not discouraged.
It's definitely something I will continue to experiment with; going to start pairing them up with an Endless Swarm formation (90 Termagants, 30 Hormagaunts). That many bodies should *really* be able to screen the Genestealers and clog up the board. Plus it's fun to bring something other than Skyblight...
You definitely need something to pick off those long-range mobile shooters though. Flyrants are always good, Mawlocs perhaps even better in this scenario... maybe even a full-size Ravener brood?
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Post by gloomfang on Sept 5, 2015 14:22:20 GMT
Genestealers are not good against heavy armor, you need a ton of attacks and AG to even glance. I generally don't send them after anything with an AV over 10.
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Post by reitifoh on Sept 5, 2015 15:51:24 GMT
Genestealers are not good against heavy armor, you need a ton of attacks and AG to even glance. I generally don't send them after anything with an AV over 10. that's weird, because when I last used my genestealers, I had a squad of 11 +swarmlord take on an imperial knight.... yes it took 3 turns, but they ended up victorious, and back then that 1 unit could have single handedly mashed my army, if I remember I only just lost after that (broodlord was sole survivor of squad), and this was WITHOUT AG
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Post by Kark on Sept 5, 2015 16:04:57 GMT
genestealers do have their good points, being one of the few decent CC units with (...) infiltrate, coupled with Lictors they make a very effective team I know You don't want to talk about their cost and that You have some plan of using them with lictors and mawlocs, but I just want to say that using them as CC unit is missing the point. Genestealers are not decent CC unit because: -slow 6" move. Okey, infiltration might help, if You go first, move through cover, fleet are also handy, but overall 6" movement is not enough for CC unit. -poor 5+ save and lack of inv saves. They are easy to kill in both shooting and CC. -lack of assault grenades. In combine with poor saves, genestealers must stay in cover to survive and this may force charging through difficult terrain and lose the superb I6 bonus. -low number of attacks, 3 attacks on the charge is not very impressive. You may have more, but the upgrade cost in unacceptable. On the other hand, if we forget about pts cost, genestealers can be effective at objectives: -they are troops and in CAD they have objective secured, -they don't test IB and will never fall back or attack themselves because of that. They don't require synapse, so they can secure separated objectives, -they have ld10, no fearless/fearless bonus. Stealers will most likely pass their morale tests for taking casualties and can go to ground for better saves. Synapse may make them fearless if we need it, -ability to infiltrate on objectives (very useful at deadlock, contact lost, spoils of war) or outflank/reserve (useful in eternal war missions, tactical escalation). So my point here is to look at genestealers as a unit that does objectives, not the CC one. Doing mealstroms is what stealer are decent at. Additionaly they have some fighting skills, so they are not that easy to eliminate. Against shooting attacks they have cover saves (4+ for ruins, 3+ for gtg, 2+ for night fight or conqueror of the cities trait) against assaults they have I6 and WS6 with rending, so securing the objectives in ruins is a perfect spot for them. Genestealers as an objective unit, don't need any biomorphs at all. Why I don't use genestealers myself? Well, it is all about pts cost. It is cheaper to use deepstriking rippers or lictor spam for doing the same job.
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Post by Kark on Sept 5, 2015 16:19:54 GMT
I myself plan to use 20- 25 genestealers in my new '3rd turn do or die' 2k list all the genestealers will infiltrate with DL assassins get as close as they can first turn (doesn't matter if they get charged) then use the Lictors/ DL special rule to call in "2" Mawlocs without scattering TFTD , with swarmlord (for -1 reserve roll, and back field threat) 1-2 flyrants (deployed gliding) and a tervigon (produce objective grabbing gants, should the game continue), thinking or re- running the numbers so that I can have some gargoyles DS too, as well as 1 or 2 mucolid spores to thin out the ranks. Instead of swarmlord I strongly recommend using ADL or imperial bastion with comms relay. Bastion is more expensive, but it can store venomthrope inside and You can start with all Your flyrants on board with 2+ cover save and have rerolls on reserve rolls. This solution is cheaper than swarmlord and far more effective. I say big no to tervigons. It is better to bring more genestealers with objective secured and infiltrate/outflank on objectives. Venomthrope inside bastion can hold one, rest can be secured by infiltrators or deepstriking lictors/rippers. 2-3 flyrants (I would go with 3) are required for getting up gtg units (genestealers and lictors). Flyrants also have the firepower to aid Your objective grabbers and their target priority is also high. Instead of gargoyles, You may use deepstriking rippers. They have secured just like genestealers and are cheaper. Mucolids, spre mines ar great distraction units.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 5, 2015 18:02:48 GMT
Genestealers are not good against heavy armor, you need a ton of attacks and AG to even glance. I generally don't send them after anything with an AV over 10. that's weird, because when I last used my genestealers, I had a squad of 11 +swarmlord take on an imperial knight.... yes it took 3 turns, but they ended up victorious, and back then that 1 unit could have single handedly mashed my army, if I remember I only just lost after that (broodlord was sole survivor of squad), and this was WITHOUT AG sounds like you got lucky, and the other guy rolled poorly for stomps.
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Post by gloomfang on Sept 5, 2015 19:39:48 GMT
Not saying they can't just that they are not the preferred target. Trust me I've had stealer/BL units take out land raiders.
What type of knight?
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Post by reitifoh on Sept 5, 2015 22:54:53 GMT
I myself plan to use 20- 25 genestealers in my new '3rd turn do or die' 2k list all the genestealers will infiltrate with DL assassins get as close as they can first turn (doesn't matter if they get charged) then use the Lictors/ DL special rule to call in "2" Mawlocs without scattering TFTD , with swarmlord (for -1 reserve roll, and back field threat) 1-2 flyrants (deployed gliding) and a tervigon (produce objective grabbing gants, should the game continue), thinking or re- running the numbers so that I can have some gargoyles DS too, as well as 1 or 2 mucolid spores to thin out the ranks. Instead of swarmlord I strongly recommend using ADL or imperial bastion with comms relay. Bastion is more expensive, but it can store venomthrope inside and You can start with all Your flyrants on board with 2+ cover save and have rerolls on reserve rolls. This solution is cheaper than swarmlord and far more effective. I say big no to tervigons. It is better to bring more genestealers with objective secured and infiltrate/outflank on objectives. Venomthrope inside bastion can hold one, rest can be secured by infiltrators or deepstriking lictors/rippers. 2-3 flyrants (I would go with 3) are required for getting up gtg units (genestealers and lictors). Flyrants also have the firepower to aid Your objective grabbers and their target priority is also high. Instead of gargoyles, You may use deepstriking rippers. They have secured just like genestealers and are cheaper. Mucolids, spre mines ar great distraction units. firstly I never run fortifications (don't have any, don't see point in buying a stationary unit for a race always on the move), and I run swarmlord for pure loyalty, he has never let me down in a fight (except when he got swarmed by 20 cultists), and for me his bonus' outweigh his cost (plus as i'm trying to keep the enemy contained, they not want to get close to him) 2) only reason as to tervigon over genestealers its hard to kill and with CC a big threat, while producing objective grabbers (and since I always run hive fleet detachtment, never have secured anyway), that and 25 is my genestealers maxed at mo, plus like the swarmlord, she never fails me when I need her most. 3) I NEVER run more than 2 flyrants, for one I only have 2 and second I have never liked the idea of massing it.... too much like these 5 flyrant lists.... boring 4) As I said I don't have secured so that bonus is out, and on the turn the DS gargoyles can fire + get HOW and blind should they get into CC, tying up units longer, but still may consider rippers for harass purpose (remember, the idea of the build is to table the opponent or trap them in their deployment zone) Mucolids spores I have used in the sporefield formation and just 3 can keep the enemy fire focused for 2-3 turns.... like the swarmlord you do NOT want these things to get in CC with you (twice the have instant deathed the enemy warlords/ chapter masters, for just 15 points... even if they don't count towards the VP's)
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