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Post by saxif on Sept 2, 2015 9:22:03 GMT
Anyone know which is the oldest codex out of those not updated?
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Post by topaxygourouni on Sept 2, 2015 9:54:50 GMT
Ah so sometime next year so far as we know, it usually goes the bigger sellers first? Chaos, tau sell more than nids I imagine. I can't remember where mds where in the order of 6th codexii I think this is the biggest problem Tyranids have. In general it is very very bad for a codex when it is the last codex of an edition or the first of the next one. Being the last codex of an edition means that it is designed with ideas that are soon going to be obsolete, therefore every other codex after it will be more up to date than you (way more up to date than a 2-3 month distance would indicate). Being the first codex of a new edition usually means that you are the guinea pig that the developers will poke around with stupid stuff until they figure out what works and what doesn't so that they can fine tune the next codexes after you. A grand example of those two points was the 7th edition beastmen / 8th edition Tomb kings books. The 7th edition beastmen were the last 7th edition codex and was being written with "8th edition in mind". Only 8th edition wasn't there yet and the designers only had feign ideas on how to do stuff. They heard about "monsters getting stronger due to something called thunderstomp", so they priced the Beastmen monsters ridiculously expensive and ridiculously without thought (three completely different monsters all have the same price tag). So that was a fail. When 8th edition hit, Tomb Kings were the guinea pig to test for the next, better army books. That's why TK were the single worst army in 8th edition, even worse than their 6th edition codex. Now there is a reason why beastmen and TK were chosen as the books to rececive such treatment. Reason was that they were the ones not selling. so it was pretty simple to feck with those two books instead of fecking with Empire or High Elves. Because if things went south with Empire, they would lose A LOT. Tyranids are alas an army that doesn't sell good. This is why it is prone to be the last or the first book of an edition and that's why it will almost always be worse than mehreens or eldars.
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Post by elricofgrans on Sept 2, 2015 12:36:24 GMT
Anyone know which is the oldest codex out of those not updated? Age has never been a factor in how GW does this: it tends to be more based on the popularity of the army. That is why Smurfs get updated CONSTANTLY: they make the lion's share of the sales. Arguably, Adepta Sororitas have not been updated since second edition. If we count their sixth edition eBook as an 'update', then the order is: Oct 12 - Chaos Space Marines Mar 13 - Chaos Daemons Apr 13 - Tau Empire Oct 13 - Adepta Sororitas Jan 14 - Tyranids Apr 14 - Astra Militarum In general it is very very bad for a codex when it is the last codex of an edition or the first of the next one. Being the last codex of an edition means that it is designed with ideas that are soon going to be obsolete, therefore every other codex after it will be more up to date than you (way more up to date than a 2-3 month distance would indicate). I would disagree with this. Those written at the end are written based on in-testing rules of the next edition. This means they are often broken (either OP or UP) on release but they should be good at the start of the new edition. For example, Eldar and Orks at the end of fourth were broken, but worked really well under fifth. Things break when GW does their usual job of changing their design goals half-way through an edition. Every edition shows this change of direction half way. In seventh, we see that Necrons, Smurfs and Eldar are written with a completely different design goal to Orks and Dark Eldar. Even looking at VERY similar factions, Blood Angels are notably weaker than Dark Angels because they were written before this design shift. By the time Nids are witten, GW may have changed their design goals again to make things (a) more streamlined, (b) less powerful, (c) who knows!
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Post by Squire on Sept 2, 2015 13:06:14 GMT
I will half to go with Gig on this one Deep striking would be fair not OP by any means. Assaulting for ground unit like raverners, trygons, unit coming out of the trygons hole. Rippers would make since. The trygon would have sent the info back to the hive allowing the troops to know what was up above. As for what I think will happen. I think the Trygon/Prime will Become a Gargantuan Creature like the Wraith knight did. It was before so it make since it will do so again. If they are still saying we are getting something in December I will get excited. Now is a little to early for me. I'm not keen on stuff charging on the turn it comes on from reserves. Not necessarily because it is overpowered (though I think it could be very open to abuse) but just as a gameplay mechanic. It would be fluffy for a unit like genestealers to launch an ambush, but maybe there are other ways to allow that to work. Maybe on the turn a stealer unit appears they can only be hit with snap shots or templates and blasts (which is what I think invisibility should be, incidentally) I doubt the trygon will be a gargantuan either. It may have been in the past but it just isn't big enough now- it isn't on the scale of the wraithknight or any of the superheavy vehicles, and if the trygon became a GMC what about the mawloc? Or the dimachaeron, tervigon and T-fex. Actually carnifex and hive tyrant aside all of the other TMCs are closer to the size of a trygon than a trygon is to a wraithknight. I suppose the heirodule is about the same size as a trygon but that's a pretty old model now The answer may be to make it sort of a gargantuan, but not. Give its tail some kind of sweep attack that hits everyone in base contact with S6 AP- as a stomp equivalent; tack on some special rules to increase its regular CC damage output to that of a dimachaeron; make it harder to kill (T7 and eternal warrior?) and just give it 12" movement. Again, the problem with that is the mawloc. How far can you change the statline of one without changing the other? I expect if GW wanted to give us a knight equivalent it would be a new GMC or they'd steal the heirodule from FW and do a larger plastic kit that makes the tervigon and trygon look small
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Post by topaxygourouni on Sept 2, 2015 13:15:34 GMT
Swarmlord will be our GMC methinks. Size doesn't matter as Astartes codex has shown us. If Marneus Calgar can be a LOW, despite being the little funny dude he is, then by the fluff god the Swarmy DESERVES to be a LOW too, especially when he was the one to down Calgar in the first place. And what best way than to do this than to make Swarmy a GMC? He doesn't need size, his power is in his bonesabres. And you bet I would dig me a 12" Swarmlord.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 2, 2015 13:41:23 GMT
He doesn't need size, his power is in his bonesabres. That's what she said.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 2, 2015 13:44:14 GMT
Yeah, but assaulting after deep striking, supported by two units of relentless grav devastators putting down 40 pinning, twin linked grav shots that reroll wounds/pens is ok. So, no, assault after DS isn't OP. Just because they are allowed to do it doesn't make it any less broken. That's the definition of escalation, "well they can do it now so it's ok". And on and on we go with only the last few codexes being relevant. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't have to like it. It's killing the game or at least turning it into a different game entirely.
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Post by topaxygourouni on Sept 2, 2015 13:55:10 GMT
Yeah, but assaulting after deep striking, supported by two units of relentless grav devastators putting down 40 pinning, twin linked grav shots that reroll wounds/pens is ok. So, no, assault after DS isn't OP. Just because they are allowed to do it doesn't make it any less broken. That's the definition of escalation, "well they can do it now so it's ok". And on and on we go with only the last few codexes being relevant. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't have to like it. It's killing the game or at least turning it into a different game entirely. Khorne deamonkin can also do it in that little limited warhammer world thing. If you get a dreadclaw drop pod and a full 20x berzerkers they can assault from deep strike. If it is becoming a common theme, then it turns from escalation to reshaping a way of thinking in the game completely. Yes it used to be staple, but not any more. Just like 2 minimum troops used to be staple but not any more as formations and unbound lists have taken over. And besides, Tyranids were the first to be able to assault from infiltrate (ymgarls). Taking goodies from the Hive Mind and giving it to the prey should not abide. By the Dude, it should not abide.
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Post by gigasnail on Sept 2, 2015 14:36:46 GMT
Yeah, but assaulting after deep striking, supported by two units of relentless grav devastators putting down 40 pinning, twin linked grav shots that reroll wounds/pens is ok. So, no, assault after DS isn't OP. Just because they are allowed to do it doesn't make it any less broken. That's the definition of escalation, "well they can do it now so it's ok". And on and on we go with only the last few codexes being relevant. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't have to like it. It's killing the game or at least turning it into a different game entirely. and everyone howled when ymgrls were gone. /shrug.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 2, 2015 14:53:37 GMT
There's a difference between an overpriced no shooting attack 5+ save elite unit being able to do it and what the skyhammer allows, which is overwhelming firepower followed by an assault mop up. Still don't think we get it back. GW doesn't like 'nids to have nice things. I mean, they LOOK nice, they just don't work.
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Post by shadowfinder on Sept 2, 2015 15:40:46 GMT
Honestly you could assault out of reserves in 5th nd it was not a big deal. Well out of outflank at lest. It was not OP at all and made my opponents make some hard choices.
I can't understand how people think it is so over powering. It's not anything that hasn't been done. As gig said with how shooting units can come in and OP you with mass shooting, How is that any different then assaulting.
Units deep-striking should really be hitting on 5's or 6's really. They just fell from space there is no way the know what's going on the ground when they land. And they just fell from outer space in a sealed pod slamming in to the earth no way they are balanced for shooting. If assault unit need to figure out what's going on so do shooting units.
ymgrls had 4+ its what made them somewhat survivable. Also having genestealers assaulting of the board edge made you opponent thing about deployment more. These days its a joke for deployment most of the time. People worry about melta or rapid fire only. Assaults never enters there thinking beyond deploying only 11 in. to stop lucky charge or farther back to keep turn two assaults from happening. Also Dark Eldar could assault out of web-ways which made there beast-packs amazing. You don't see them today cause they have to stand around for a turn. Its dumb how the rules are as they worked in 5th just fine assaulting out of reserves. Deep-strike couldn't assault but board edges could. Even then in 5th shooting was king. No one called OP then why would it be any different no. I would play a few games first before making a broad statements like that.
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Post by Squire on Sept 2, 2015 16:01:28 GMT
Swarmlord will be our GMC methinks. Size doesn't matter as Astartes codex has shown us. If Marneus Calgar can be a LOW, despite being the little funny dude he is, then by the fluff god the Swarmy DESERVES to be a LOW too, especially when he was the one to down Calgar in the first place. And what best way than to do this than to make Swarmy a GMC? He doesn't need size, his power is in his bonesabres. And you bet I would dig me a 12" Swarmlord. Swarmlord as a LOW makes a lot of sense and a defensive buff or two to go with it would be great, but gargantuan? It would be like a dreadnought special character being a superheavy walker. Imagine a swarmlord stomping a land raider? Five swarmlords could probably jump up and down on a land raider for an hour and the most they'd manage would be a weapon destroyed and crew shaken (very shaken if they realise what's happening). There's a middle ground if you give it S7, armourbane and eternal warrior. Sort of a Be'lakor power level, where it's still a monstrous creature befitting its size, but is going to be a match for practically anything and LOW status is definitely justified I was going to suggest an invulnerable vs shooting but I like the synergy of shrouding, tyrant guard and screening gaunts. I think it would be cool if you could join a swarmlord/walkrant to a unit of carnifexes. Why not? Sounds like a formation to me; swarmlord or walkrant and two or three fexes and they can form a single unit plus some other buff. You know where catalyst is going to be used...
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Post by WestRider on Sept 2, 2015 16:01:41 GMT
I've had a suspicion for a while now that the GW Dev team are really bad at playing against Assault Armies. The Game's been getting pushed more and more toward firepower with every Edition since 3rd, with no real reason that any competent player I know can think of.
On topaxygourouni's comment at the top of the page, Nids are actually one of the few Dexes to break that rule. Not the current one, of course, but we were first out of the gate in 4th Ed, and that Dex was dominant through the whole edition, and held up remarkably well until its replacement in mid-5th.
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Post by mattblowers on Sept 2, 2015 16:10:05 GMT
I would play a few games first before making a broad statements like that. How about this? It would be a game changer. We could use it, no doubt about it. The problem in allowing this mechanic in would be that they would give it to beloved SM as well. It would make terminators awesome again for sure. Look how hard skyhammer is to handle, you want that in all the game? It would relegate Tau and IG to obscurity.
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Born
Ripper
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Post by Born on Sept 2, 2015 16:12:55 GMT
Why do tyranids even have 'psychic powers' to begin with, it's the 'power of the hivemind', they do not gain their powers from the warp to shape it and manifestate psychic powers, it does exactly the opposite. Tyranids are not able to use the warp, which is why their fleet are so slow... In my eyes tyranid 'psychic powers' shall neither be denyable, nor shall they suffer perils of the warp (we could get some kind of subtituation table for it, for like a synapse-collapse for overdoing it or sort of...). I mean we cannot roll on rulebook psychic powers, why shall we pay the price that comes along with it? And another thing i would find very helpful is, when it comes to determining the amount of scatter-dice, if any tyranid (synapse-)model can draw LOS to that given point, you only roll a single die (i mean that's what synapse comes along with, right? sharing information in like no time, like seeing through all eyes of the whole synapse-organism simultaniously...) In my eyes the real threat from a tyranid army should not be the tyranids themself (OP stat-line), they are just nodes, puppets with almost no free will to manifastate the hiveminds overwhelmingly horror. The tyranids profile could even be lowered, as long as the penalties, that the hivemind brings, would be so much more devastating. GW invented such a brilliant fluff around the tyranids(there is nothing you can give them to let of, cuz all they want is you ), but the game-translation is so sloppy that it almost hurts. They try to fit their uniqueness in a schema, that does not fit their belongings.
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