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Post by Jabberwocky on May 28, 2015 7:40:48 GMT
So I was watching the film Dark City the other night and noticed a lot of similarities with the Tyranid Hive Mind and got thinking if either of them had drawn inspiration from the other.
In the film, the (remnants of?) the human race live in a perpetually dark city (on a space station but unbeknownst to them) where every night they have their memories altered and the world around them manipulated.
The aliens behind it all use human corpses as hosts to carry their weird 'facehugger' shaped bodies around and interact with the world.
The aliens share a collective memory and are studying humans and their individual memories to divine what makes a 'soul' in an attempt to help their own dwindling race from dieing.
The aliens also have psychic powers allowing them to bend reality through shear force of will (albeit augmented by technology for large scale endeavours).
Now, say the Tyranid race consumes most of the galaxy but begins to die because the Hive Mind becomes diluted, or weakened by some bad biomass, etc.
Would it go to these lengths to study inferior species and their individuality to save itself? Is it conscious enough and self aware enough?
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Post by misterdutch on May 28, 2015 9:26:34 GMT
Interesting idea, but i dont see it going that way in the 40K universe. It is suggested quite strongly that the Tyranid Race comes from outside the galaxy, has travelled perhaps millions of years to reach the human-inhabited galaxy, and has probably consumed other galaxies before "ours". Doesn't seem likely that they would suddenly become diluted or weakened by bad biomass since it would simply evolve to adapt to said biomass. Whether it is conscious and self-aware, I guess we don't really know either. All we can so is speculate and fantasize about it  I did read a very interesting Zoat speech in the novel "Space Marine" by Ian Watson. While it is more of an interpretation of the Hive Minds goals by a brainwashed Zoat, and therefore likely not relevant to the "true" goals of the Hive Mind, it is still interesting to read: (note, the following is not an explanation of the Hive Minds purpose, but just a speech made by a Tyranid-brainwashed Zoat, who tries to stall for time and just have a nonsense story about Chaos because he knows this is what the Space Marines, who have invaded a Tyranid bioship, care about, and will therefore, be willing to listen about it. Still, would be cool if this was actually the true goal of the Tyranid race - to fight Chaos!) |
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Post by arbra on May 28, 2015 17:17:11 GMT
Interesting idea, but i dont see it going that way in the 40K universe. It is suggested quite strongly that the Tyranid Race comes from outside the galaxy, has travelled perhaps millions of years to reach the human-inhabited galaxy, and has probably consumed other galaxies before "ours". Doesn't seem likely that they would suddenly become diluted or weakened by bad biomass since it would simply evolve to adapt to said biomass. Whether it is conscious and self-aware, I guess we don't really know either. All we can so is speculate and fantasize about it I did read a very interesting Zoat speech in the novel "Space Marine" by Ian Watson. While it is more of an interpretation of the Hive Minds goals by a brainwashed Zoat, and therefore likely not relevant to the "true" goals of the Hive Mind, it is still interesting to read: (note, the following is not an explanation of the Hive Minds purpose, but just a speech made by a Tyranid-brainwashed Zoat, who tries to stall for time and just have a nonsense story about Chaos because he knows this is what the Space Marines, who have invaded a Tyranid bioship, care about, and will therefore, be willing to listen about it. Still, would be cool if this was actually the true goal of the Tyranid race - to fight Chaos!)
I have been saying this for years.......my gaming community still mocks me for it......but it makes the most sense. They believe that Tyranids are "evil" or "killing machines", although I have tried to tell them that they are our saviors!!!
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Post by javaman21011 on May 28, 2015 21:42:10 GMT
I suppose the Tyranids are saviors if you also think the Spanish Inquisition 'saved' people  But seriously that Zoat quote makes a lot of sense. I think it's been stated that the Tyranids were attracted to this galaxy because of the Astronomican... like a shining beacon that attracts moths. Which implies they are aware of the emanations within the Warp. That would imply they can perceive the Warp and thus also see the taint within it. To me that sounds like their desire to consume organics and transmogrify them into Tyranid strains (which are immune to chaotic taint) would be a way to cleanse and normalize the galaxy... basically what the Borg are all about. Adding your (genetic) distinctiveness into the hive mind. It would certainly add more flavor to the Hive Mind. They're not just a boring devourer of flesh that moves on. They clearly have intelligence and a purpose, it's just really interesting to theorize on what that true purpose is. |
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Post by arapaima on May 29, 2015 3:03:12 GMT
Interesting! Another thing to add is that the main character farseer in Warzone Valedor Novel of the Tyranids beating the Chaos gods when the time for an epic showdown comes. The only problem with that is our galaxy will be devoid of life should the Tyranid wins, so everyone's oing whatever they can to resist them.
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Post by blackrainbow on May 29, 2015 3:22:51 GMT
Always a good speculation on potential similarities and shared threads and arcs of stories and their origins. I have my favorite back-story that I use for my hive fleet, though as with all things, some stuff doesn't fit.
If ever there was a sign of dark times, it would be if chaos could manifest and taint one of our bugs. That would be beyond crazy of course, as it would only be able to get at something powerful that has a semblance of self-awareness, and at that level we're too powerful. But man, can you see Old'swarmy with a daemon taint? Yikes....
Past that, I have to agree that we adapt and overcome too well, so things like studying a species (beyond what say, the genestealers do with cults) is out of the question. Even GS cults are just hybrids with minor genetic infections taking over and swaying their thought process and to some extent, biological functions. If, and this is a big if, if a GS cultist were to be influenced by daemons, then perhaps we could see some middle ground. Again, very scary middle ground, even by grim-dark standards.
(TM) on the above idea if you're reading this Games-Workshop - don't screw with dumb ideas, keep to your own writers and their... good... ideas for stuff.
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Post by Jabberwocky on May 29, 2015 7:06:19 GMT
What if, for instance, a species was found to be far more powerful than it's genetics and technology would imply?
Do you think the Hive Mind would ever consider or even be capable of capturing live specimens or enslaving an undigested race? Could it study without combat?
I guess this kind of takes the fluff back to the old zoat and cultist days.
I guess it also depends if the Hive Mind can actually *think* or if it simply carries basic experiences and emotions from one body to the next to better preserve those bodies in battle and better replenish it's armies. Kind of like a learning computer program or basic AI.
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Post by slithernaut on May 29, 2015 7:33:23 GMT
Commence the tuning
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Post by j0rdan on May 29, 2015 16:10:58 GMT
What if, for instance, a species was found to be far more powerful than it's genetics and technology would imply? Do you think the Hive Mind would ever consider or even be capable of capturing live specimens or enslaving an undigested race? Could it study without combat? I guess this kind of takes the fluff back to the old zoat and cultist days. I guess it also depends if the Hive Mind can actually *think* or if it simply carries basic experiences and emotions from one body to the next to better preserve those bodies in battle and better replenish it's armies. Kind of like a learning computer program or basic AI. I don't think so. To me, it seems the most likely way the hive mind would function would be in a way that is similar to it's constituent parts. You don't consult with the skin cells on your thumb before you decide exactly how to swing your arms as you walk. Usually, you don't consciously decide that at all. I imagine the hive mind has overarching goals, but individual hive fleets would be like a finger or toe. It would take something cutting deep to make it even notice, with all other functions basically being on (in this case, an incredibly complex) auto-pilot. It's already the most massive thing in physical reality, so it would probably not even stop "swinging it's arms" if it encountered a species that might otherwise be worth study. |
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Post by Jabberwocky on May 29, 2015 18:15:48 GMT
So despite being able to make tactical decisions on an individual scale (such as a Tyrant avoiding a challenge) it's consciousness is purely on a galactic scale? We could think of the galaxies as being like cells surrounding a virus rather than empires being conquered.
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Post by blackrainbow on May 30, 2015 1:00:16 GMT
My understanding of the malenthrope's fluff was that was what we've been doing, eating brains and selecting certain bio-mass to incorporate. There is no "tuning", only *sluuuuuuurp*.
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Post by Jabberwocky on May 30, 2015 14:27:10 GMT
My understanding of the malenthrope's fluff was that was what we've been doing, eating brains and selecting certain bio-mass to incorporate. There is no "tuning", only *sluuuuuuurp*. Do you think the Hive Mind could conceive of a strength or power beyond what can be replicated through genetics? Does it understand what it means to be an individual and could it ever try to harness that potential? |
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Post by blackrainbow on May 30, 2015 23:28:55 GMT
The Hive already has pushed genetics beyond what all the other races could hope for, save perhaps the Necrons but they had primordial gods helping their technology. Our FTL (Warp) travel is done by Norn-ships, variants of our species. Our communications (or smothering will of the Norn-Queen>all other organisms down the tyranid line) are superior, depending on whether or not the Shadow in the Warp is intentional or a by-product of our communications. Allowing fleets to communicate across whole star systems. Our genes are designed to adapt, and be reconsumed for either general biomass re-purposing or to learn (as I mentioned about malenthropes) about species. So, do I think the Hive Mind could conceive of a strength or power beyond what can be replicated through genetics? Yes, if and only if we need to. We don't go nilly willy making neat stuff because we can, that's not our style (and IMPO, not our goal either). As for having a sense of individuality, to some extent perhaps but that is not our power or representation in the fluff. We are truly the Greater Good, not those Tau upstarts. We have no inner sociopolitical conflicts or machinations, other than the poorly given reason that (for table-top reasons of why we would ever fight one another) Hive fleets would fight each other to see which is strongest and that winner consumes the lesser Fleet to gain in strength. But that is a waist of energy when we're fighting for the same goal, the consumption of everyone else. This is it's own topic. So, our heroes, those with a sense of direction, synapse. If not for themselves and other lesser tyranid species, they come tuned-in to the hive and all the battle strategies they will ever need to know. Even the great Swarmlord, when defeated (in a poorly written way – neither here nor there :P ) has it's conscientiousness reabsorbed by the Hive Mind and thus “learns” from those mistakes. The Swarmlord is as close as we come to an individual with a sense of self. But, we still accept challenges on the table. Is this just bad writing or do we have ego? It might be a stretch for us, but I will argue (using a base hive tyrant as the agent), why would any of our characters accept a challenge if not for some personal reason? Who do we have to impress, the hive we control and that will be re-consumed (including us) at the end of the battle. Why would we accept anything other than "destroy all, and consume". There is no practical reason to challenge. 1. We are superior and will win the challenge and the time the challenge takes is inconsequential - why challenge at all then? Just keep on moving and gobble up the would-be hero. 2. We are superior and will win the challenge but by being tied up in that challenge we would lose the battle over-all - skip and keep going. 3. We are evenly matched and may or may not win the challenge, a loss would devastate the battle for the Hive (skip challenge) and a win would follow into either of the above (1 & 2), skip the challenge. 4. We are inferior and would lose the challenge but the time it takes for the enemy to dedicate such a warrior to our defeat would cost them the battle – here, accept the challenge. 5. We are inferior and would lose the challenge but the time it takes for an enemy to dedicate such a warrior to our defeat would ensure they win the battle – skip the challenge. 6. We are inferior and would lose the challenge but the time it takes for an enemy to dedicate such a warrior to our defeat would be inconsequential to the battle – skip the challenge. 7. Lastly, we have a sense of self and ego and pride and my fall into any of the above categories but due to self-realization, we let the taunt or what ever goads us to fight a challenge – accept the challenge. So only really one potential reasons in my challenge examples to express self. Perhaps if we looked at genestealer cults (which I won't) we could find a sense of self, but I think those are all just pre-seeding places for invasions yet to come, or to weaken the defenders. Now that Ymgarl genestealers are regulated to being undesirables in a Hive Fleet due to their genes, that is about as close as I can see the Hive studying something to learn from it. But we don't (new fluff- yeah!), we keep it at arms (claws) distance. So, waaaaay too long and thought into this, but to the OP, Jabberwocky, no we would not set up anything like Dark City has going, to study (dinner). We could study species, but our is adapt or die, and we adapt – so they die. The size of our different fleets, the shear amount of time and numbers we have, we would evolve over any adversity we could not shoot or eat. Minus any neutering from GW. Edit: Apologies for the wall of text, I get bored sometimes. Hopefully there aren't too many contradictions and it stayed on topic and my mind didn't wonder too far. |
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Post by arapaima on May 31, 2015 3:24:10 GMT
Always a good speculation on potential similarities and shared threads and arcs of stories and their origins. I have my favorite back-story that I use for my hive fleet, though as with all things, some stuff doesn't fit. If ever there was a sign of dark times, it would be if chaos could manifest and taint one of our bugs. That would be beyond crazy of course, as it would only be able to get at something powerful that has a semblance of self-awareness, and at that level we're too powerful. But man, can you see Old'swarmy with a daemon taint? SWARMLORD.. CHAMPION OF KHORNE. Swarmy would be an excellent candidate as a champion of khorne. He is after all an organism breed to kill, perfected to kill and has been dedicating it's sole living function to pragmatic, simple minded bloodshed since the beginning of time. The only problem for them I guess is that the nid's mind are too alien to see the appeal in siding with chaos like many of the worshippers. I felt that nids are what the tau and their kroot auxiliary aspired to me. A true mind of one and the ultimate predator. |
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Post by nikh on May 31, 2015 3:34:48 GMT
My understanding of the malenthrope's fluff was that was what we've been doing, eating brains and selecting certain bio-mass to incorporate. There is no "tuning", only *sluuuuuuurp*. Do you think the Hive Mind could conceive of a strength or power beyond what can be replicated through genetics? Does it understand what it means to be an individual and could it ever try to harness that potential? I think the Hive Mind totally understands what it means to be an individual, since it saves the minds of Tyrants to reproduce in times of crisis, most famously the Swarmlord, but also understands that individualism would completely undo the fabric of the Tyranid race. If the Termagants start to ask, "why do we have to be used as cannon fodder to rid the enemy of ammunition?" problems arise. They understand it, but they make extra measures to suppress it; that's why gants run and hide when not controlled by a Synapse creature. That's an aspect I've always loved about Nids, that they're so brutal in every extent. They build space ships outta body parts, and even the victors get killed due to what can only be described as telepathically-ingrained brainwashing. When separated, Nids keep themselves alive. When controlled, they follow orders; orders that say even if you win, you die. I think some bugs have more freedoms than others, that they let Tyrants think, but only so far. They are allowed freedom to strategize but not to question their goal. Personally, that's something that makes Tyranids one of the most terrifying forces in any lore I've ever read. |
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