Deep Striking and Swooping and Gliding: Oh My!

[gingerwerewolf]

Hey all

I just read this article on Bell of Lost Souls
www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/04/40k-rules-conundrum-daemonkin-fmc-edition.html

It seems to state that you can actually make your FMC Deep Strike, and then change modes from Swooping to Gliding, and thus charge in your next turn.

So, a couple of Questions:

A) Is Legit? (I trust an analysis done by you lot a great deal more than BoLS)
B) If so, is it a viable delivery method for our Flying Hive Tyrants, and thus we can start arming them with Lash Whip and Bonesword or other CC upgrades.

Also, a T6 FMC with 5 wounds, a 3+, 5++ and a DESTROYER weapon for 300 points. Say WHAT? And its WS is 10!

Opinions please!

[jimmyp]

yeah i read this today too interesting idea and i mentioned it too a few guys and they said NO thats cheating lol

[Moontyranid]

its bs anyway you still have to move 13+" to swoop

[FTGTEvan]

No - it's not. I like Rob but can't agree with his conclusions here. An FMC that Deep Strikes must arrive in Swoop and doesn't get a movement phase. In order to switch flight modes you must move, and you can't move the turn you arrive from DS.

If you treated arriving from reserves as "before" the movement phase (which doesn't exactly exist), then ALL reserves would be able to move onto the board then move in the movement phase, allowing a Swooping FMC to fly on, turn 90, and fly again. No one plays like that or would argue that's legitimate. This is no different, unfortunately for the Bloodthirster. Summoning him is pointless.

[gigasnail]

^this.

[rpricew]

Our gaming group just had a pretty long discussion regarding this. We are pretty regular tournament players and also know Rob pretty well. No one in our area is letting this ruling stand. I would love for it to work, but it's not going to happen anytime soon in our area.

Per the BRB: “A Flying Monstrous Creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature is kept as Reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is in Swooping or Gliding mode. If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserve, it always counts as being in Swooping mode."

[dcoy]

The funny part about this is that a summoned demon is arriving via deepstrike, not "from deepstrike reserve," so a summoned demon can, in fact, select its flight mode upon arrival. Our (tyranid) deepstriking FMC's arrive via deepstrike reserve and must arrive swooping.

[cypheon]

Apr 1, 2015 20:10:41 GMT dcoy said:

The funny part about this is that a summoned demon is arriving via deepstrike, not "from deepstrike reserve," so a summoned demon can, in fact, select its flight mode upon arrival. Our (tyranid) deepstriking FMC's arrive via deepstrike reserve and must arrive swooping.

Page 26 of brb, second paragraph of conjuration:

When the power is resolved, the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162), within the power's maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes.


Now I'd have to see the actual blood tithe wording to be sure but if it's treated as a conjuration, they get boned out of a next turn charge.  I saw the scan of the rulebook in the article but can't immediately recall seeing an image of Blood Tithes wording..

[cypheon]

Edit: disregard what was posted here, found an actual scan and not the dip$#!7 paraphrasing everyone was using.  

The blood thirster is summoned, arrives via deep strike, BUT is not subject to the rules for reserves like units summoned by a conjuration power, so it can enter in glide, and charge on the controlling players next turn.  Also for fun if your warlord was the sacrifice the BT keeps the warlord trait, and your opponent has to kill the BT to get slay the warlord credit, but the BT is not himself your new warlord for other rules purposes.


GW really should have put a Summoned Unit USR in the BRB as there are several ways to summon without using a conjuration power...

[FTGTEvan]

cypheon - except it's not so cut and dry - Blood Tithe happens before movement "at the beginning of the turn" but so do Reserve Rolls. There's a weird bleed in the wording of reserves into the movement phase, but no where does it say moving reserves on is separate from rolling for them "at the beginning of the turn. Thus, if you're arguing because blood tithe happens before the movement phase, you have to contend with the fact that arguable reserves arriving on the board do to, thus both would get to move again.

[Mauler]

There's two components here which allow the model to Deep Strike: the Deep Strike USR that all Daemons get & via FMC.

If you opt to arrive using the "Daemon-inherited" special rule then you've teleported in like every other daemon in the game and are gliding.
If you opt to arrive using the FMC's Deep Strike then you've swooped in just like one of ours has.

Pretty important distinction IMO, the difference is plain as day when looking at the Daemon/kin & Tyranid books; all the Daemons have "Deep Strike" specifically listed as a special rule, thus giving them the option of a normal deep strike, our FMCs do not.

[FTGTEvan]

That's nice in theory, but under the FMC rules it says that an FMC that Deep Strikes always arrives in Swoop. There's no caveat for how he was granted the DS special rule.

[mattblowers]

Silly GW (please do not swear) -ing up the rules again! It's pretty clear as written. In fact, for summoning a daemon prince it makes you place one with wings UNLESS you have a model without them. My son promptly put his winged daemon prince on the shelf and packed the other one. You'll see a lot of daemon princes with cut off wings I bet. The bloodthirster summoning is pointless when you spend those points on things you'll actually lose. I guess it could be a good distraction for a last turn charge now and again. If you plan on doing it though, you'd better take a ton of MSU cultists and run them forward in the open.

[cypheon]

Apr 2, 2015 3:18:55 GMT FTGTEvan said:

cypheon - except it's not so cut and dry - Blood Tithe happens before movement "at the beginning of the turn" but so do Reserve Rolls. There's a weird bleed in the wording of reserves into the movement phase, but no where does it say moving reserves on is separate from rolling for them "at the beginning of the turn. Thus, if you're arguing because blood tithe happens before the movement phase, you have to contend with the fact that arguable reserves arriving on the board do to, thus both would get to move again.

I'm arguing the fact that it is not coming from reserves, period.  It poofs in using deep strike and no matter what point in the turn, deep strike says no move or charge this turn, period.  As it does not arrive from reserves, the blood tithe summoned blood thirster does not adhere to the FMC rules regarding coming in from reserve.  Conjuration psykic power rules specify differently, for conjuration created units, not all summoned units.  

Where is the confusion coming from where you think people will claim they can move in the movement phase after deep striking when deep strike blatantly says no, regardless of "start of turn" or "start of movement phase"?

[cypheon]

Apr 2, 2015 11:43:42 GMT mattblowers said:

Silly GW (please do not swear) -ing up the rules again! It's pretty clear as written. In fact, for summoning a daemon prince it makes you place one with wings UNLESS you have a model without them. My son promptly put his winged daemon prince on the shelf and packed the other one. You'll see a lot of daemon princes with cut off wings I bet. The bloodthirster summoning is pointless when you spend those points on things you'll actually lose. I guess it could be a good distraction for a last turn charge now and again. If you plan on doing it though, you'd better take a ton of MSU cultists and run them forward in the open.

There is no such requirement.  It says the summoned prince has daemonic flight if the model you choose to use has wings attached.  If you bring three princes and only one has wings, you choose which of the three plops down.  The summon does not force you to place the flier before all others.