Compare Carnifex to Tyrant Guard (In a CC army only)

[rpricew]

Dec 17, 2014 7:24:03 GMT Jabberwocky said:

AG and CC doesn't make them too bad a unit, kind of like mini-fex.

I just wanted to really take a look at CC Fex vs CC Tyrant Guard in a detailed manner. I posted this in another thread, but didn't want to derail that thread too much. Therefore I started this one to discuss these two units.

Here are a couple of ways to run the two units.

2 x Carnifex: (8) Wounds @ T6, (8/10) Attacks base @ Str 10 (charge), WS 3, 3+ Save = 270 points with AG
Pros:
Natural Str 9/10 (charge) - edited
Attacks are AP2
Causes Fear
HoW
Move Through Cover
Smash
Can be effective independently
Can buy grenades to strike before Power Fists/Thunder Hammers

Cons
only (4/5) attacks @ WS3 plus HoW
Instinctive Behavior (feed) for Broods
Needs Synapse for Broods
Takes a Heavy Force Org Slot
Initiative 2

3 x Tyrant Guard: (6) Wounds @ T6, (12/15) Attacks @ Str 7 (Charge), WS 5, 3+ Save = 225 points with AG/CC
Pros:
Lots of attacks
Rending
AP2 Armorbane (Avg Str 14 Charge)
High Weapon Skill
Can join with Tyrant for durability
Cheaper than 2 Carnifex
Don't take a Force Org Slot

Cons:
Lose (Move Through Cover, Fear, Smash)
Adding CC to the brood makes them Unwieldly - Edited
Instinctive Behavior (Feed) for broods
Needs Synapse for Broods
loses effectiveness as it takes wounds
Must buy Hive Tyrant (most of us already do)

3 x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips & Bone Swords, Adrenal Glands: 225 points
Same price as the Crushing Claws variant... but with a few changes.

This brood attacks at Initiative 7 and is AP3 Lifedrain, but it gives up AP2 and Armorbane
Initiative 7
Still 12/15 attacks on the Charge
Add Toxin Sacs for an additional 15 points and you're at 240 points allowing you to re-roll wounds against anything T5 on the first round of Combat (wounding on 3+) because of Furious Charge.  I'm thinking of Thunderwolf Cavalry in this example.  Also, with subsequent rounds of combat, you will be re-rolling against any T4 models.


What are your thoughts? I'm interested in running some Tyrant Guard in some games to have fun and see if I can't pull off a CC surprise for some of these nasty CC units that are out there. I know they probably can't stand up to a Dedicated CC unit, like TH/SS Terminators, but they should offer up some fun options.

[terrorfromthedeep]

It's a good comparison, a couple of things to add though:

Fexes are S9 base, S10 on the charge with AG

Also worth noting that 2 x fexes would need 2 x pods, a group of TG would only need 1 pod

I think the TG would excel against elite units with WS5 and more attacks but the fexes obliterate vehicles far far better

[natelicious]

Also should be noted that if you're putting Crushing Claws on the Tyrant Guard then they become Unwiedly, with the trade-off being Armourbane and AP2. Personally I'd keep them cheap and have Rending Claws and Adrenal Glands on them, unless your intention is to outright obliterate vehicles rather than wreck them, or hunting down TEQs. Great thread I'm looking forward to the conversation.

[phayze]

Biggest problem I have with guard are dumping too many points into that already expensive 2W model. I keep them cheap as ablative wounds for a Swarmlord or Prime. LWBS guard are a beast in cc though.

[rpricew]

Thanks for the updates... I'm updating the original thread with the suggestions and comments from the Hive.

MOVED TO FIRST POST:

3 x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips & Bone Swords, Adrenal Glands: 225 points
Same price as the Crushing Claws variant... but with a few changes.

This brood attacks at Initiative 7 and is AP3 Lifedrain, but it gives up AP2 and Armorbane
Still 12/15 attacks on the Charge
Add Toxin Sacs for an additional 15 points and you're at 240 points allowing you to re-roll wounds against anything T5 on the first round of Combat (wounding on 3+) because of Furious Charge.  I'm thinking of Thunderwolf Cavalry in this example.  Also, with subsequent rounds of combat, you will be re-rolling against any T4 models.

This unit still suffers from the drawbacks as the Crushing Claw variants.  It's almost worth it to put one guard as a CC variant or just add CC to one of the guard, bringing the total cost of the brood up to 260 points.  

This is still cheaper than 2 Carnifex and has almost the same killing power.  Add a screening unit of Hormagaunts/Gargoyles and a Malanthrope for cover... and it becomes pretty durable marching up the field.

[jimmyp]

Great comparison list, I reckon having one with the crushing claws would be useful just in case of a big vehicle etc. Lash whip boneswords are great! Getting the higher initiative and life drain is nice touch.

[phayze]

i ran three guard with a prime, guard had all of the toys: lwbs, lwbs, crushing claws, toxin sacs, adrenal glands, and prime had reaper, claws, ymgarl. charged a riptide, lost a lwbs guard to overwatch, moved at I1 on guard because NO GRENADES. prime didnt rend, riptide killed CC guard, lwbs guard managed to ID him. got lucky, but DANG NO GRENADES.

[N.I.B.]

Dec 17, 2014 15:49:54 GMT rpricew said:

3 x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips & Bone Swords, Adrenal Glands: 225 points
Same price as the Crushing Claws variant... but with a few changes.

This brood attacks at Initiative 7 and is AP3 Lifedrain, but it gives up AP2 and Armorbane
Initiative 7
Still 12/15 attacks on the Charge
Add Toxin Sacs for an additional 15 points and you're at 240 points allowing you to re-roll wounds against anything T5 on the first round of Combat (wounding on 3+) because of Furious Charge.  I'm thinking of Thunderwolf Cavalry in this example.

Tyrant Guards should never be able to assault TWC. In that case something has gone terribly wrong for the space puppy player. At least it's a situation you should never factor in. The most likely outcome is that TWC get the charge on Tyrant Guards and just melt them before they can swing.

[Yautja]

Against the majority target type which has WS4 and I4, cheap Guards with RC should massively outperform CC Carnifex surely?

Fex gets hit first, on 3s. Only retaliates on 4s.
Guards hit at same time, on 3s and only hit on 4s. Both likely to be wounding on 2s.

[seethe]

I thonk TG would be awesome in a pod, although I haven't figured out if I like CC or LWBS yet. Better than a single fex. Could also join up with a flyrant in the danger zone behind enemy lines or a melee flyrant. They are versatile.

Marching I dont know if I would take them, that is a lot of points to get shot up without shooting back. If I take a carnifex it'll most likely be dakka...that crack is too good to pass up, and they can still threaten something on the charge.

[sneggy]

I have actually ran the tyrant guard in a couple of lists now. My opinion is the lash whip/bonesword build is better done by shrikes, it's cheaper and faster.
Crushing claws is nice if a little expensive. Next on the board to try is a unit of 2crushinf, 1 rending. Just drops the price a little. Might even switch the ratio to make them even cheaper.

[Jabberwocky]

Dec 18, 2014 7:01:18 GMT N.I.B. said:

Dec 17, 2014 15:49:54 GMT rpricew said:

3 x Tyrant Guard: Lash Whips & Bone Swords, Adrenal Glands: 225 points
Same price as the Crushing Claws variant... but with a few changes.

This brood attacks at Initiative 7 and is AP3 Lifedrain, but it gives up AP2 and Armorbane
Initiative 7
Still 12/15 attacks on the Charge
Add Toxin Sacs for an additional 15 points and you're at 240 points allowing you to re-roll wounds against anything T5 on the first round of Combat (wounding on 3+) because of Furious Charge.  I'm thinking of Thunderwolf Cavalry in this example.

Tyrant Guards should never be able to assault TWC. In that case something has gone terribly wrong for the space puppy player. At least it's a situation you should never factor in. The most likely outcome is that TWC get the charge on Tyrant Guards and just melt them before they can swing.

Depends if you can tarpit them first really with gargoyles. It's not beyond the realms of possibility even if it isn't easy.

[Yautja]

I can't see an issue with marching Guards up. Are they likely to get shot at? Not really. If so, they're durable enough anyway.

[terrorfromthedeep]

Dec 18, 2014 12:06:17 GMT sneggy said:

I have actually ran the tyrant guard in a couple of lists now. My opinion is the lash whip/bonesword build is better done by shrikes, it's cheaper and faster.
Crushing claws is nice if a little expensive. Next on the board to try is a unit of 2crushinf, 1 rending. Just drops the price a little. Might even switch the ratio to make them even cheaper.

Shrikes vs TG is actually a better comparison as they have much similar roles.

In a melee centric army I think you could make a case for finding spots for both TG in a pod and Shrikes as both can be killy but each has clear weaknesses (mobility and durability respectively). If you decide to run just one of the two it would depend on the rest of your army as to what fits best. You could pod guards in most places and have them do business in a medium sized threat range without much worry. Shrikes on the other hand need a lot more protecting as they can be taken down by a stiff breeze so screening units / shrouded is absolutely critical along with something to take priority away from them if possible

[sneggy]

I agree entirely on running both. However I still think lash whip and bonesword is the domain of the shrike. They use them very well.
Tyrant guard are the only thing outside monsters who get the crushing claws and they should use that.