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Post by Yautja on Nov 17, 2014 17:04:45 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed
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Post by Silegy on Nov 17, 2014 17:50:18 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed I feel like there are few intelligent and respected people (not gonna name so I dont look like an anal alpinist) who would see the idea behind it and would repel the likes of me from saying "Lol, Lictor spam, hahaha, what an idiot!" Also, I am sure Brassangel would be delighted by the list and would probably suggest throwing in a Malfunctor for cheap synapse.
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Post by tag8833 on Nov 17, 2014 17:55:49 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed He actually did post his list over on Dakka www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/6060/572843.pageThe only feedback he got was that spore mines aren't so good, and that he was doing MSU to the extreme.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 17, 2014 18:03:10 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed We talked about doing something really similar to this list when the data slates first dropped. The question was always the cost of the formation and being able to cram enough oomph in the rest of the list. Never really revisited it after 7th dropped though there there was also discussion about maybe using lictors to precision grab objectives. Most of that got tabled because at the time, there was a lot of hate for straight maelstrom out of the book. Nice try though.
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Post by luke1705 on Nov 18, 2014 1:38:31 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed I feel like there are few intelligent and respected people (not gonna name so I dont look like an anal alpinist) who would see the idea behind it and would repel the likes of me from saying "Lol, Lictor spam, hahaha, what an idiot!" Also, I am sure Brassangel would be delighted by the list and would probably suggest throwing in a Malfunctor for cheap synapse. Maybe it's time to move past what people think of this or that unit/list and focus on....I don't know...actual tactical applications? Jy2 was the one who responded on dakka dakka, calling the list "too light on meat and too heavy on potatoes", and he has a Grand Tournament win under his belt as well. We didn't see it coming. People are set in their ways and group-think is a thing. That being said, what interests me the most about this list is that Sean actually won on kill points for all but one of his games, in which he tied. He mentioned that many of his margins for kill points were rather large also. This is impressive for a MSU list to be sure. My only thought is that he presented no good targets for his opponent due to having mostly small and inconsequential units that could be deceptively hard to kill with GTG shenanigans and good cover. Of course he also had nearly unlimited mobility. But what do you guys think? How would you have played his list? (A general question, I know)
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Post by Yautja on Nov 18, 2014 9:45:07 GMT
Well like I posted earlier, he dealt with a considerable threat of a squad with Abaddon attached by spanking it with 3 Mawloc TFTD hits. By the time all six large blasts were resolved, the squad was gone and Abaddon only had 1 wound left. Many people call the Mawloc a lottery unit which often fails. This dude has used a 'gimmick' to make 3 of them win the jackpot on the same prey.
As for the rest, Lictors assaulting from cover are hard to deal with. Overwatch fire needs 6s and if in ruins they have a 3+ cover save. S6 with Rending is capable of hurting anything in the game. If enough of them charge a target apparently the dice gods smile on you and you get the required results.
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Post by Anggul on Nov 18, 2014 11:03:43 GMT
Well like I posted earlier, he dealt with a considerable threat of a squad with Abaddon attached by spanking it with 3 Mawloc TFTD hits. By the time all six large blasts were resolved, the squad was gone and Abaddon only had 1 wound left. Many people call the Mawloc a lottery unit which often fails. This dude has used a 'gimmick' to make 3 of them win the jackpot on the same prey. As for the rest, Lictors assaulting from cover are hard to deal with. Overwatch fire needs 6s and if in ruins they have a 3+ cover save. S6 with Rending is capable of hurting anything in the game. If enough of them charge a target apparently the dice gods smile on you and you get the required results. The thing with that match is that Abaddon and Berserkers in a Land Raider is a massive points sink and he was really asking for it. It was rarely going to work out for that unit. Still, with that many Lictors he may have been able to separately Mawloc the multiple other units that could have taken the place of that huge one. Get two Lictors near each of the three squads so they can hopefully only kill one, then nail them. My issue is that the Lictors cost a lot of points altogether but I suppose the extremely improved reliability and thus kill count of the Mawlocs makes up for that. I don't think I would run Mawlocs without Lictors, they certainly are a bit too much of a lottery without the perfect deep strike. I would go for living artillery node instead in that case.
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Post by coredump on Nov 18, 2014 16:00:47 GMT
Just a shame the chap didn't link the list here first. Certain people would have dismissed him as a noob, guaranteed I feel like there are few intelligent and respected people (not gonna name so I dont look like an anal alpinist) who would see the idea behind it and would repel the likes of me from saying "Lol, Lictor spam, hahaha, what an idiot!" Silegy: Sean Naydon is far from a 'noob' (IIRC he is the one that came up with the DE BeastPack also). That alone would have caused me to take another look at his list concept if we had not already talked about it. But we had discussed it... Yautja: Not me... as in past discussions... I felt the only way to get the Mawloc/Lictor combo to work would be to go all in, which is what he did. But I still didn't think it would do very well... sure it would 'work', but not always win. And c'mon... genestealers and Spore mines... For list building, there is a certain 'unknown' quality about spam.... Even models that are not really good, may be *really* good when spammed. FMCs for example, or rhinos, or MSU, etc.... By going 'all in', sometimes other armies can't deal with it very well. As for this list, I think its success comes down to 3 things 1) Tournament: I do not think this as important as Giga does, but no leveled ruins, lots of other ruins, etc may have helped. 2) Sean really knows the game, and may think of things others will not during a game. Read his Bat Reps, what started on the board, and his strategy, changed drastically from game to game. This list allows for that, but it takes knowledge/experience to see how to do it for *each* game. Trapdoor Spider, for example, is pretty much the same for every game. 3) Obscurity: No one was aware of the list and what it could do. The Chaos player took his bajillion point Abaddon unit out of his LR and within 6" of a lictor, just to kill DeathLeaper. He had no idea what the lictor/mawloc combo could do. I think folks had trouble with target priority and were plain blindsided. Bonus) No Wave Serpent or AdLance: I know he said he had strats against these, and I believe him; but I still think his life was easier by not seeing them.
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Post by coredump on Nov 18, 2014 16:03:44 GMT
Actually while within a building you become fearless. However, you are still subject to instinctive behavior. It doesn't say that you fail a morale check. It says that you act as if you had (for the lurk table, at least) and must fall back. Meaning you will have to disembark from the safety of the bastion and cry bitter tears of envy when your opponent shoots you up. As far as the bastion itself, yes it is a unit and yes it can score. It is not objective secured, but if there are troops inside it, and it is within 3" of an objective, then yes you could have the unit inside claim that objective. It's like with units inside vehicles - you measure to the building. That being said, using the bastion as an example again, if you have a unit on the battlements of said building, then they are where they are. Measuring to the building only takes precedence if the physical unit is not actually on the board. In the case where they are on battlements, you measure distance from objectives normally (don't forget the 3rd dimension!) I *think* you could even place the bastion *on top* of an objective, since you deploy it just like any other model.... I blame this on the BRB and folks being a little careless with reading. The BRB says to place the Fortifications before terrain (or around then). But later is says that Forts that you pay for deploy with the rest of your army. Early tourneys didn't catch that second part.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 18, 2014 20:32:49 GMT
List made a clean sweep at one event. Author is already way ahead of the power curve as far as 40k list building goes. Let's see how it continues to do. I think it's a masterful troll list, it makes my nethers tingle.
The mines and MSU as lane blockers/fire soakers I think is key here.
The CSM list was pure first year player stuff. Abbadon and crew and a bunch of CSM in rhinos isn't exactly the stuff of genius; neither is derping out of your assault vehicle to take potentially six S6 AP2 pie plates to the groin of a unit that costs 1/3 of your army.
Again, before anyone gets their panties bunched in not taking anything away from the guy or his list; I think it was very well done indeed.
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Post by luke1705 on Nov 18, 2014 21:15:03 GMT
Actually while within a building you become fearless. However, you are still subject to instinctive behavior. It doesn't say that you fail a morale check. It says that you act as if you had (for the lurk table, at least) and must fall back. Meaning you will have to disembark from the safety of the bastion and cry bitter tears of envy when your opponent shoots you up. As far as the bastion itself, yes it is a unit and yes it can score. It is not objective secured, but if there are troops inside it, and it is within 3" of an objective, then yes you could have the unit inside claim that objective. It's like with units inside vehicles - you measure to the building. That being said, using the bastion as an example again, if you have a unit on the battlements of said building, then they are where they are. Measuring to the building only takes precedence if the physical unit is not actually on the board. In the case where they are on battlements, you measure distance from objectives normally (don't forget the 3rd dimension!) I *think* you could even place the bastion *on top* of an objective, since you deploy it just like any other model.... I blame this on the BRB and folks being a little careless with reading. The BRB says to place the Fortifications before terrain (or around then). But later is says that Forts that you pay for deploy with the rest of your army. Early tourneys didn't catch that second part. Haha talk about objective: secured! I'll have to look into this, but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I've had my Dimachaeron sit on top of an objective and say "come at me, bro!" Of course, that's a different type of objective: secured The only thing I would say is that this might not always be as advantageous as one might think. For example, against a drop pod army, I would totally deploy my army and bastion away from any objectives, especially any in my deployment zone so that their drop pods wouldn't be securing any objectives when they came down (in the event that they fell for the bait). FYI claiming no credit for that strategy - jy2 came up with it, I'm just regurgitating
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Post by mattblowers on Nov 19, 2014 11:54:28 GMT
I'm impressed. I've played the DL formation and it's really good (I even played it against Wave Serpent spam with a WK and it was brilliant). Hold tons in reserve and survive (which is why I think one Mawloc started on the board) and things get progressively difficult for your opponent.
I quit playing it because of facing other Tyranids and IG. Both are common in my meta and both tear down lictors too easily.
Further proof that conventional wisdom isn't typically accurate let alone wise.
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Post by rpricew on Nov 19, 2014 12:32:08 GMT
The CSM list was pure first year player stuff. Abbadon and crew and a bunch of CSM in rhinos isn't exactly the stuff of genius; neither is derping out of your assault vehicle to take potentially six S6 AP2 pie plates to the groin of a unit that costs 1/3 of your army. Again, before anyone gets their panties bunched in not taking anything away from the guy or his list; I think it was very well done indeed. The CSM guy is a good friend on mine. His name is Chip and he's been playing since RT days. His list is a straight up 5th edition list and he took it for Beer and Pretzels kind of fun at 11th Company. Chip is just getting back into 7th edition, having skipped most of 6th edition. He took models that he owned and were painted to 11th Co. He understood that bringing a 5th edition list to that kind of event was not going to perform well. He was wrecking all of us during 5th with Demons, Space Wolves and Necrons and into the early part of 6th. I think the other armies that the Lictor Bomb faced would be a better assessment to its veracity than Chip's 5th edition CSM game.
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Post by mattblowers on Nov 19, 2014 13:16:11 GMT
How long before everyone tries to copycat? I'll bet it doesn't work well for others. He seems to be a great player which is more important than a great list. I'm not delusional enough to believe I'm a great player. I'm a good player, but I don't have the dedication to be a great one. He talked about practice? Practice! I don't practice. This is my hobby, I play for fun and diversion. I'm fine with that and am good enough to give a good game to most opponents. Plus I play Malifaux, Warmachine/Hordes, Fantasy, Dystopian Legions, and Battleground (I might have a problem.). Loving this discussion though.
One thing we ALL agree on: 2 Dakka flyrants are aces!!
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 19, 2014 15:48:23 GMT
The CSM list was pure first year player stuff. Abbadon and crew and a bunch of CSM in rhinos isn't exactly the stuff of genius; neither is derping out of your assault vehicle to take potentially six S6 AP2 pie plates to the groin of a unit that costs 1/3 of your army. Again, before anyone gets their panties bunched in not taking anything away from the guy or his list; I think it was very well done indeed. The CSM guy is a good friend on mine. His name is Chip and he's been playing since RT days. His list is a straight up 5th edition list and he took it for Beer and Pretzels kind of fun at 11th Company. Chip is just getting back into 7th edition, having skipped most of 6th edition. He took models that he owned and were painted to 11th Co. He understood that bringing a 5th edition list to that kind of event was not going to perform well. He was wrecking all of us during 5th with Demons, Space Wolves and Necrons and into the early part of 6th. I think the other armies that the Lictor Bomb faced would be a better assessment to its veracity than Chip's 5th edition CSM game. good for your friend; it takes balls to show up with a list like that and compete at a GT.
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